Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on the Macintosh, Jobs and Woz, Stock Options (Pt 2)
Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on Company's Earliest Days and the College Steve Jobs
Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health
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He was diagnosed with cancer the same month. (Justin Sullivan/Getty Images)","publishDate":1317947001,"status":"inherit","parent":42207,"modified":1593547632,"caption":"Steve Jobs announces the availability of iTunes for PC computers in October 2003. He was diagnosed with cancer the same month. ","credit":"Justin Sullivan/Getty Images","description":"SAN FRANCISCO - OCTOBER 16: Apple CEO Steve Jobs delivers a kenote address October 16, 2003 in San Francisco. Jobs announced the popular iTunes music program would now be able to be used on both Apple and PC computers and the successful 99 cent music store was adding thousands of new songs. 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FM","link":"/"}},"news_49394":{"type":"posts","id":"news_49394","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"49394","score":null,"sort":[1323387146000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-the-early-days-jobs-and-woz-stock-options-pt-ii","title":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on the Macintosh, Jobs and Woz, Stock Options (Pt 2)","publishDate":1323387146,"format":"aside","headTitle":"News Fix | KQED News","labelTerm":{"term":6944,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_49396\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 225px\">\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/12/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\">\u003cimg src=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/12/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\" alt=\"\" title=\"Daniel_Kottke-225x300\" width=\"225\" height=\"300\" class=\"size-full wp-image-49396\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photo: Wikipedia\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Two weeks ago we posted \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/11/25/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college/\">\u003cstrong>Part 1 of Peter Jon Shuler's interview with Dan Kottke\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>, aka Apple employee No. 12. Kottke first met Jobs when both attended Reed College in Oregon and the two became close friends, traveling to India together. Kottke was witness to the birth of Apple, plugging in chips into Apple I boards part-time for minimum wage before becoming an engineer for the company. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Part 1, Kottke talked about the influences of eastern mystical literature on Jobs and himself, and what it was like to work for the nascent company that Jobs was putting together. In Part 2, Kottke reminisces further about the early days, discussing Jobs' harnessing of the brilliant engineering of Steve Wozniak; the traits that allowed for Jobs to build the company; and the perils of not being savvy about stock options. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Edited transcript: \u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\n\u003cem>Daniel Kottke\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By that first summer of 1977 I liked this kind of work. I didn't have any training in computers and so what I didn't realize is that I was headed on a very risky career path. Because I didn't know I was not going to be eligible for stock options, and didn't find out till many years later when it was too late. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days of the \u003ca href=\"http://oldcomputers.net/appleii.html\">Apple II\u003c/a>, Hildy Licht ran a business where she had housewives doing the same work. She was there right at the very beginning of Apple. She built the power supplies. If you don’t want thousands of something, only 50 -- and money was tight back then -- you do something like that. From the very beginning Apple was hungry for all types of peripheral cards, and there was a steady stream of work to be done. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hildy was a character. She had a start-up business where she had housewives doing the same kind of work Steve's sister Patti Jobs was doing, where you could watch TV while stuffing boards with components. Then she had a wave solder machine and they would be run through. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I quickly developed an aptitude for troubleshooting. My whole first year was in production as an hourly employee. Then \u003ca href=\"http://www.storiesofapple.net/jack-of-all-apple-trades-interview-with-bill-fernandez.html\">Bill Fernandez\u003c/a> left, which left an opening for me to move into his place in engineering. I'll always be grateful to him. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He left because he found out he wasn't going to get a stock option. At the time, the issue of stock options wasn't publicized, and there was no one to talk to about it because there was no such thing as a personnel department. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the summer of 1984, we were all recruited to do the trade shows and to introduce the Mac to everyone else. At that point I was 30 and had been working since the week I graduated college. So I went off to Europe for a few months and then came back and instantly had people offering to hire me as a contract engineer. So I didn't have enough excuse to go back to Apple. That went on for 10 years. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the Macintosh, I was the one who did the keyboard, which was a single-chip computer, a computer subsystem. That was my first embedded system project. And I did many embedded designs over the next decade for a range of start-ups, none of which made money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For me as an unskilled person working in a different field, I like to think I was using some natural perseverance, and was hard working got good at what I was doing. I looked at Woz and Jobs and saw they didn't have degrees. But what I didn't appreciate is that they had been steeped in technology for many years. I was such a newcomer, the whole time at Apple I felt I was playing catch-up. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>It seems like Woz was the consummate engineer, and Steve was the promoter...\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Very much so. And Steve to his credit was harnessing Woz. Woz did not have the entrepreneurial urge and was really happy at his job at Hewlett Packard, and I think he's been on record as saying he would have been happy staying there. So Steve jobs gets credit for seeing what the situation was. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/bushnell.html\">Nolan Bushnell\u003c/a> of Atari also was a big part of forming Steve Jobs' character. Because Steve looked at Nolan and his success at Atari.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was very surprising to me how focused and serious Jobs got about what he was doing with the Apple I, because I didn't understand the opportunity myself. That was where Steve's personality shift happened –- long before there was money involved. There was money, but it was more like here's something we can do and change society because the computer had huge growth potential. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did he contribute to Woz's design of the Apple I? Possibly nothing. Woz had this idea about sticking the processor on the TV/typewriter. It's a complicated thing to make the timing chains to generate video. Then using dynamic RAM was a stroke of great brilliance. So the Apple I came out with 4k expandable to 8k. I can believe that Woz came up with all of that hardware on his own and somehow Steve heard about it and was smart enough to say well this is unique, maybe somebody would want to buy this. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the point that they decided to spend the money to lay out a circuit board, I think that was before the order to the Byte Shops, so they were going out on a limb. And that was when Steve sold his van and Woz sold his HP calculator and they raised a few thousand dollars and paid a layout guy to do a PC layout and make the circuit boards. And then there was the small item of the $30,000 worth of small parts that needed to be ordered. That was the point at which \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=ron+wayne\">Ron Wayne\u003c/a>, who was the third founding partner, got cold feet, because he had a mortgage to pay, unlike these 2 kids. He felt like he was the adult and he couldn’t keep up with these guys. When Steve Jobs told him he had ordered $30,000 worth of parts, that was a lot of money, and Ron backed out. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a lot of ferment going on. In 1975, that was the year of the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrew_Computer_Club\">Homebrew Computer Club\u003c/a>. It was a whole auditorium filled with people and all kinds of stuff was going on. I didn't appreciate technically what was going on; I was just tagging along. The Altair had launched onto the national market, and Bill Gates and Paul Allen were already down in Albuquerque starting Microsoft about that time. Right here, in Palo Alto, people were making graphic cards for the Altair other computers. And the first Internet broadcast packet at SRI was right around that time, too. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve gets immense credit for having the entrepreneurial spirit in taking that first step to make the Apple I. And Woz of course was a superhuman engineer in that he did the hardware architecture and built the prototype and got the hardware debugged and wrote the monitor ROM, which was the routines. And then he went right ahead and \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_BASIC\">wrote his own BASIC\u003c/a>. It was the BASIC running on the Apple I that really set it apart, because none of the others had something like that. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> So what do you think there was about Jobs' personality that allowed for his great success? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It's a mix of all the various skills. You have to be technical enough to understand what you're doing, you have to have a broad enough feeling for the culture you live in to know when to persevere. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I'm sure Steve idolized Thomas Edison as a boy; Edison gave us the clear message about perseverance. He was toiling away on lots of things, many of which were failures. The combination of perseverance, technical ability, and vision in a marketing sense. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He gets huge credit for the marketing vision embodied in the \u003ca href=\"</a>\">Apple II\u003c/a>, which was the lightweight plastic case. That was not a technical decision; that was a consumer electtonics marketing direction. That was his vision, to make it lightweight, unlike all the other computers that had big grapefruit sized transformers. Steve created someone to make a power switching supply and got \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=JERRY+Manock\">Jerry Manock\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/design/apple2.html\">design\u003c/a> the lightweight plastic case. Another factor – personal charisma – managed to recruit \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&sugexp=ppwe&cp=8&gs_id=19&xhr=t&q=mike+markkula&tok=qgLmYtP9IFC4k1sebXCeRw&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=webhp&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=mike+mar&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=f&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=243aec9c1865a62f&biw=1016&bih=534\">Mike Markkula\u003c/a>, who has all these same skills. He was a retired millionaire at the age of 30 when he visited the Apple garage and saw the Apple I. He was the angel investor that took it to the next stage. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a sense the two Steves were very lucky Mike Markkula came along, because the whole thing could have fizzled at that point. I have seen many companies that had promising first products that have fizzled, where you have a circuit board and it has some kind of market acceptance but you can't get to that next level of getting funding. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, funding alone is not enough. It's the combination of pulling together people to get a board of directors, a line of credit at the bank, all those components. Steve was lucky Apple was able to pull in enough of the ingredients to keep the fire going and to follow up on that growth. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there was the whole episode of the Macintosh. \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=jef+raskin\">Jef Raskin\u003c/a> was was bitter about the way Steve treated him until the end of his life. Jef was a renaissance man in so many areas. Steve has a debt of gratitude to Jef in a personal growth kind of way. And it was Jef who clearly \u003ca href=\"http://mxmora.best.vwh.net/JefRaskin.html\">got that Mac project started\u003c/a>. He and \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=brian+howard\">Brian Howard\u003c/a> were compiling – they had those 2 big notebooks called the Macintosh papers, going back years. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, I was working on the \u003ca href=\"http://oldcomputers.net/appleiii.html\">Apple III\u003c/a>, Apple's business computer, which was a big disappointment. I got to build the Apple III prototypes. That was also the time Apple went public, and there was a huge frenzy about stock options. Everyone had stock options except me and a small number of others. So it was exciting to work on the Apple III but depressing to realize I wasn't part of the millionaire club at the Apple public offering. But I didn't have much of a career choice to leave. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then Steve did hire me on the Macintosh project, which I'm grateful for. He didn't have to do that. He could have given me a little bit of career advice about stock options. There was a kind of personal friendship element that was lost there, to put it politely. Those were difficult years for me. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Macintosh project was a wild ride, and that was pure Steve Jobs' personality. At that point, he had learned how to be an entrepreneur, and Apple was successful, and he was very wealthy and he was able to start it and get it funded. He then recruited \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=john+sculley+apple\">John Sculley\u003c/a> at Apple, which \u003ca href=\"http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20116606-264/erstwhile-enemy-sculley-jobs-was-greatest-ceo/\">came back to bite him\u003c/a>. But Sculley was very clearly good for Apple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Apple was floundering for awhile...\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>End Part II. We will post Part III soon...\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":null,"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1323451674,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":34,"wordCount":1904},"headData":{"title":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on the Macintosh, Jobs and Woz, Stock Options (Pt 2) | KQED","description":"Two weeks ago we posted Part 1 of Peter Jon Shuler's interview with Dan Kottke, aka Apple employee No. 12. Kottke first met Jobs when both attended Reed College in Oregon and the two became close friends, traveling to India together. Kottke was witness to the birth of Apple, plugging in chips into Apple I","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on the Macintosh, Jobs and Woz, Stock Options (Pt 2)","datePublished":"2011-12-08T23:32:26.000Z","dateModified":"2011-12-09T17:27:54.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"disqusIdentifier":"49394 http://ww2.kqed.org/news/?p=49394","disqusUrl":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/12/08/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-the-early-days-jobs-and-woz-stock-options-pt-ii/","disqusTitle":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on the Macintosh, Jobs and Woz, Stock Options (Pt 2)","path":"/news/49394/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-the-early-days-jobs-and-woz-stock-options-pt-ii","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_49396\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 225px\">\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/12/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\">\u003cimg src=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/12/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\" alt=\"\" title=\"Daniel_Kottke-225x300\" width=\"225\" height=\"300\" class=\"size-full wp-image-49396\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photo: Wikipedia\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Two weeks ago we posted \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/11/25/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college/\">\u003cstrong>Part 1 of Peter Jon Shuler's interview with Dan Kottke\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>, aka Apple employee No. 12. Kottke first met Jobs when both attended Reed College in Oregon and the two became close friends, traveling to India together. Kottke was witness to the birth of Apple, plugging in chips into Apple I boards part-time for minimum wage before becoming an engineer for the company. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Part 1, Kottke talked about the influences of eastern mystical literature on Jobs and himself, and what it was like to work for the nascent company that Jobs was putting together. In Part 2, Kottke reminisces further about the early days, discussing Jobs' harnessing of the brilliant engineering of Steve Wozniak; the traits that allowed for Jobs to build the company; and the perils of not being savvy about stock options. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Edited transcript: \u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\n\u003cem>Daniel Kottke\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By that first summer of 1977 I liked this kind of work. I didn't have any training in computers and so what I didn't realize is that I was headed on a very risky career path. Because I didn't know I was not going to be eligible for stock options, and didn't find out till many years later when it was too late. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days of the \u003ca href=\"http://oldcomputers.net/appleii.html\">Apple II\u003c/a>, Hildy Licht ran a business where she had housewives doing the same work. She was there right at the very beginning of Apple. She built the power supplies. If you don’t want thousands of something, only 50 -- and money was tight back then -- you do something like that. From the very beginning Apple was hungry for all types of peripheral cards, and there was a steady stream of work to be done. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hildy was a character. She had a start-up business where she had housewives doing the same kind of work Steve's sister Patti Jobs was doing, where you could watch TV while stuffing boards with components. Then she had a wave solder machine and they would be run through. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I quickly developed an aptitude for troubleshooting. My whole first year was in production as an hourly employee. Then \u003ca href=\"http://www.storiesofapple.net/jack-of-all-apple-trades-interview-with-bill-fernandez.html\">Bill Fernandez\u003c/a> left, which left an opening for me to move into his place in engineering. I'll always be grateful to him. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He left because he found out he wasn't going to get a stock option. At the time, the issue of stock options wasn't publicized, and there was no one to talk to about it because there was no such thing as a personnel department. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the summer of 1984, we were all recruited to do the trade shows and to introduce the Mac to everyone else. At that point I was 30 and had been working since the week I graduated college. So I went off to Europe for a few months and then came back and instantly had people offering to hire me as a contract engineer. So I didn't have enough excuse to go back to Apple. That went on for 10 years. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the Macintosh, I was the one who did the keyboard, which was a single-chip computer, a computer subsystem. That was my first embedded system project. And I did many embedded designs over the next decade for a range of start-ups, none of which made money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For me as an unskilled person working in a different field, I like to think I was using some natural perseverance, and was hard working got good at what I was doing. I looked at Woz and Jobs and saw they didn't have degrees. But what I didn't appreciate is that they had been steeped in technology for many years. I was such a newcomer, the whole time at Apple I felt I was playing catch-up. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>It seems like Woz was the consummate engineer, and Steve was the promoter...\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Very much so. And Steve to his credit was harnessing Woz. Woz did not have the entrepreneurial urge and was really happy at his job at Hewlett Packard, and I think he's been on record as saying he would have been happy staying there. So Steve jobs gets credit for seeing what the situation was. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/bushnell.html\">Nolan Bushnell\u003c/a> of Atari also was a big part of forming Steve Jobs' character. Because Steve looked at Nolan and his success at Atari.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was very surprising to me how focused and serious Jobs got about what he was doing with the Apple I, because I didn't understand the opportunity myself. That was where Steve's personality shift happened –- long before there was money involved. There was money, but it was more like here's something we can do and change society because the computer had huge growth potential. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did he contribute to Woz's design of the Apple I? Possibly nothing. Woz had this idea about sticking the processor on the TV/typewriter. It's a complicated thing to make the timing chains to generate video. Then using dynamic RAM was a stroke of great brilliance. So the Apple I came out with 4k expandable to 8k. I can believe that Woz came up with all of that hardware on his own and somehow Steve heard about it and was smart enough to say well this is unique, maybe somebody would want to buy this. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the point that they decided to spend the money to lay out a circuit board, I think that was before the order to the Byte Shops, so they were going out on a limb. And that was when Steve sold his van and Woz sold his HP calculator and they raised a few thousand dollars and paid a layout guy to do a PC layout and make the circuit boards. And then there was the small item of the $30,000 worth of small parts that needed to be ordered. That was the point at which \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=ron+wayne\">Ron Wayne\u003c/a>, who was the third founding partner, got cold feet, because he had a mortgage to pay, unlike these 2 kids. He felt like he was the adult and he couldn’t keep up with these guys. When Steve Jobs told him he had ordered $30,000 worth of parts, that was a lot of money, and Ron backed out. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a lot of ferment going on. In 1975, that was the year of the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrew_Computer_Club\">Homebrew Computer Club\u003c/a>. It was a whole auditorium filled with people and all kinds of stuff was going on. I didn't appreciate technically what was going on; I was just tagging along. The Altair had launched onto the national market, and Bill Gates and Paul Allen were already down in Albuquerque starting Microsoft about that time. Right here, in Palo Alto, people were making graphic cards for the Altair other computers. And the first Internet broadcast packet at SRI was right around that time, too. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve gets immense credit for having the entrepreneurial spirit in taking that first step to make the Apple I. And Woz of course was a superhuman engineer in that he did the hardware architecture and built the prototype and got the hardware debugged and wrote the monitor ROM, which was the routines. And then he went right ahead and \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_BASIC\">wrote his own BASIC\u003c/a>. It was the BASIC running on the Apple I that really set it apart, because none of the others had something like that. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> So what do you think there was about Jobs' personality that allowed for his great success? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It's a mix of all the various skills. You have to be technical enough to understand what you're doing, you have to have a broad enough feeling for the culture you live in to know when to persevere. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I'm sure Steve idolized Thomas Edison as a boy; Edison gave us the clear message about perseverance. He was toiling away on lots of things, many of which were failures. The combination of perseverance, technical ability, and vision in a marketing sense. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He gets huge credit for the marketing vision embodied in the \u003ca href=\"</a>\">Apple II\u003c/a>, which was the lightweight plastic case. That was not a technical decision; that was a consumer electtonics marketing direction. That was his vision, to make it lightweight, unlike all the other computers that had big grapefruit sized transformers. Steve created someone to make a power switching supply and got \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=JERRY+Manock\">Jerry Manock\u003c/a> to \u003ca href=\"http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/design/apple2.html\">design\u003c/a> the lightweight plastic case. Another factor – personal charisma – managed to recruit \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww#hl=en&sugexp=ppwe&cp=8&gs_id=19&xhr=t&q=mike+markkula&tok=qgLmYtP9IFC4k1sebXCeRw&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=webhp&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=mike+mar&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=f&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=243aec9c1865a62f&biw=1016&bih=534\">Mike Markkula\u003c/a>, who has all these same skills. He was a retired millionaire at the age of 30 when he visited the Apple garage and saw the Apple I. He was the angel investor that took it to the next stage. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a sense the two Steves were very lucky Mike Markkula came along, because the whole thing could have fizzled at that point. I have seen many companies that had promising first products that have fizzled, where you have a circuit board and it has some kind of market acceptance but you can't get to that next level of getting funding. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, funding alone is not enough. It's the combination of pulling together people to get a board of directors, a line of credit at the bank, all those components. Steve was lucky Apple was able to pull in enough of the ingredients to keep the fire going and to follow up on that growth. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there was the whole episode of the Macintosh. \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=jef+raskin\">Jef Raskin\u003c/a> was was bitter about the way Steve treated him until the end of his life. Jef was a renaissance man in so many areas. Steve has a debt of gratitude to Jef in a personal growth kind of way. And it was Jef who clearly \u003ca href=\"http://mxmora.best.vwh.net/JefRaskin.html\">got that Mac project started\u003c/a>. He and \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=brian+howard\">Brian Howard\u003c/a> were compiling – they had those 2 big notebooks called the Macintosh papers, going back years. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, I was working on the \u003ca href=\"http://oldcomputers.net/appleiii.html\">Apple III\u003c/a>, Apple's business computer, which was a big disappointment. I got to build the Apple III prototypes. That was also the time Apple went public, and there was a huge frenzy about stock options. Everyone had stock options except me and a small number of others. So it was exciting to work on the Apple III but depressing to realize I wasn't part of the millionaire club at the Apple public offering. But I didn't have much of a career choice to leave. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then Steve did hire me on the Macintosh project, which I'm grateful for. He didn't have to do that. He could have given me a little bit of career advice about stock options. There was a kind of personal friendship element that was lost there, to put it politely. Those were difficult years for me. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Macintosh project was a wild ride, and that was pure Steve Jobs' personality. At that point, he had learned how to be an entrepreneur, and Apple was successful, and he was very wealthy and he was able to start it and get it funded. He then recruited \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=john+sculley+apple\">John Sculley\u003c/a> at Apple, which \u003ca href=\"http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20116606-264/erstwhile-enemy-sculley-jobs-was-greatest-ceo/\">came back to bite him\u003c/a>. But Sculley was very clearly good for Apple.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Apple was floundering for awhile...\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>End Part II. We will post Part III soon...\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/49394/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-the-early-days-jobs-and-woz-stock-options-pt-ii","authors":["80"],"programs":["news_6944"],"categories":["news_1758","news_248"],"tags":["news_672","news_301"],"label":"news_6944"},"news_48300":{"type":"posts","id":"news_48300","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"48300","score":null,"sort":[1322255706000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college","title":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on Company's Earliest Days and the College Steve Jobs","publishDate":1322255706,"format":"aside","headTitle":"News Fix | KQED News","labelTerm":{"term":6944,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_48362\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 225px\">\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/11/Daniel_Kottke.png\">\u003cimg class=\"size-medium wp-image-48362\" title=\"Daniel_Kottke\" src=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/11/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"225\" height=\"300\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dan Kottke (Photo: Wikipedia)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Remembering Steve Jobs has almost become a cottage industry. Walter Isaacson's biography is \u003ca href=\"http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2011-11-27/hardcover-nonfiction/list.html\">No. 1\u003c/a> on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction li st; \u003ca href=\"http://www.stevejobsthelostinterview.com/\">Steve Jobs: The Lost Interview\u003c/a> has been playing in movie houses around the country; and a new e-book called \"\u003ca href=\"http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Steve-Inside-mail-ebook/dp/B006B16JLQ#reader_B006B16JLQ\">Letters to Steve\u003c/a>\" has collected \u003ca href=\"http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/22/tech/innovation/jobs-excerpt-customer-service/index.html\">Jobs' email responses to customer service queries\u003c/a>and other electronic correspondence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From our own archives, we've noticed a resurgence in interest in a Jobs-related post we put up over 10 months ago: \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/01/18/dan-kottke-early-apple-employee-on-steve-jobs/\">Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health\u003c/a>, conducted by KQED's Peter Jon Shuler after Jobs announced he would take a third medical leave of absence as Apple CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Jobs stepped down for good in August, Shuler again turned to Kottke, who first met Jobs when both attended Reed College in Oregon. Kottke and Jobs became close friends, traveling to India together, and Kottke went on to work for Apple in its very earliest days, before it was even incorporated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here is an edited transcript from the first part of the interview, in which Kottke talks about the young Steve Jobs and the nascent business he started. Kottke, who began with the company plugging chips into Apple I circuit boards, went on to work on the Apple II, Apple III, and Macintosh as a computer engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How did you meet Steve Jobs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We met in the first few weeks freshman year at Reed College. Which is such a fertile and imprinting time of life. And Steve and I both happened to get copies of (a seminal book on yoga and meditation) \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Here_Now_%28book%29\">Be Here Now\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It had just come out, in 1971, and it was our mutual interest in that book that started our friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had a friend in a different dorm, and one day in the first couple of weeks he said you should come meet this guy, he's interesting. And that was Steve jobs. Steve, I remember, had a big Teac reel-to-reel tape deck with lots of bootleg Dylan. It was a pretty expensive piece of gear; I don't know how he wangled that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then the other tie in was \u003ca href=\"http://macdailynews.com/2011/10/24/meet-the-lsd-love-guru-who-gave-steve-jobs-his-reality-distortion-field/\">Robert Friedland\u003c/a>, the student body president the year we were freshmen. That summer after our freshman year he went to India and was part of the \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em> scene. He was hanging with the people in that book. Somehow I and Steve got to know him. We had an interest in Indian philosophy and spirituality in general. It was Robert who had the idea we should go to India. I had no money. But Steve had found work at Atari so he had money, and we went to see the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=Kumbh+Mela\">Kumbh Mela\u003c/a>, the biggest religious gathering in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mutual interest in \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em> quickly led to \u003ca href=\"http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/\">Autobiography of a Yogi\u003c/a>. I had never read anything like that. Then \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna\">Ramakrishna\u003c/a> and his disciples, \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_consciousness\">cosmic consciousness\u003c/a> by Bucke – I think Steve turned me on to that one. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You mentioned that Steve dropped out but continued to audit classes…\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think his parents loaned him the money for tuition, which might have been $8,000. It was a private college, so it wasn't cheap like a state school. Steve, using talents that proved valuable later in life, did a cost-benefit analysis and came to the conclusion that he didn't really need the college credit. He withdrew, got all his tuition money back, then went back to the dean and said, \"can I just audit some classes?\" He audited a few. He got good value for the money. I know he really liked Shakespeare and calligraphy and a drama class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Did you imagine then that those early influences might lead to what he was to accomplish later on?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I didn't. Not at all. Of course I didn't know he had a background in electronics. I didn't find out years later about the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box\">blue boxes\u003c/a>. I guess he didn’t see how I could contribute. I didn't know anything about electronics or phones. But he was selling blue boxes that year, our second year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He did bring Woz up to campus, and I met Woz. But we didn't talk about anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I realize now is those Silicon Valley kids were all doing electronics in high school. There was a flea market for electronics. Everybody around worked in electronics; all the fathers of all the kids. all worked either at Lockheed or HP or Varian. Steve's father worked at Spectra-Physics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve was a thoughtful, focused guy, and I really enjoyed my early conversations with him about wide-ranging topics in the world. We took psychedelics together on occasion and had good times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>In hindsight, do you see anything from that time that led to his later success? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think there was a lot of entrepreneurial spirit here in Silicon Valley. They weren't even calling it that at the time. I can remember running into Steve one day in the Reed coffee shop and he was drawing timing diagrams for some game he was working on at Atari. I had no idea what he was doing. I'd never seen anything like that. It was very foreign but he didn't seem interested in explaining it to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>At what point did you decide to stay here? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My girlfriend lived in Saratoga. I was coming to visit her and Steve. We were kindred spirits in many ways. I remember I first arrived on a Greyhound bus and Steve's father came to pick me up at the station here in Palo Alto and he had his Ford Ranchero with a laser beam installed in the engine compartment, and he had a big toggle switch on the dashboard that said \"laser.\" I thought that was wonderful. That's Silicon Valley for you. So his father was a tinkerer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That first trip when I came out, I was just trying to decide where to go to school. We probably went to the Los Altos zendo; Steve was very fond of that place. That was Steve's main social networking influence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve and Woz and their \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box\">blue box\u003c/a> activities -- the story I heard was that this article came out about \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Draper\">Captain Crunch\u003c/a>, a Vanity Fair article about \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking\">phone freaking\u003c/a>, probably about 1975. I think Woz was a student at Berkeley, and somehow they connected with Captain Crunch and got the keys, so to speak. They figured out how to work these things, and then Woz figured out how to design his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My guess is that it was Steve jobs who was the entrepreneur, who said let's make these things and sell them. It would be Woz's style just to build a prototype. That's an interesting question to ask Woz someday. I don't know how many they made, but they were all handmade I think. But they sold them, they made money. Before the Apple One, they were selling the blue boxes. But Steve never said a word to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How did you get involved with Apple? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had stayed in touch with Steve and by '75 I was ready to go back to school somewhere. I ended up applying to Columbia College and that's where I got my degree. During that year we wrote postcards. At some point that year he and I went up to \u003ca href=\"http://macdailynews.com/2011/10/24/meet-the-lsd-love-guru-who-gave-steve-jobs-his-reality-distortion-field/\">Robert Friedland\u003c/a>'s farm. It had a big apple orchard and Steve and I had both gone up there to pick apples. Simultaneously Steve had found Arnold Ehrtiz's \u003ca href=\"http://www.arnoldehret.org/healthclub/Forgotten_Foods.html\">mucousless diet\u003c/a>, a fruitarian diet healing system. I thought that was interesting, so the two of us were doing a fruitarian diet, eating apples. That's why the apple was in the air. And Robert was a very charismatic guy and has gone on to become a billionaire in his own right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely see that Steve learned a lot from Robert. When we first met him at Reed he had done time in federal prison for being caught with tens of thousands of doses of LSD. That was impressive in a kind of an outlaw way. And he was applying for a Rhodes scholarship, as a convicted felon. I thought that was fascinating. So those were the combination of events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That book, \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em>, plus \u003cem>On the Road\u003c/em>, was the biggest event of our freshman year. Because Robert had a personal connection into that whole scene, that was very compelling. And that's what led us going out to India, and me coming back to the west coast to visit, and to Robert's farm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I called Steve up in the spring of 1976 when I was in my junior year in Columbia, and he said, you know, we're doing this computer project and I said that's kind of interesting. There's no possible way anyone could tell it would be successful, there was a lot of hobbyist activity going on. So I'm trying to decide what to do for the summer, Steve said you can come help me, I said okay, and that was it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That was when we were doing the Apple I, and when I first showed up at the Jobs' house in Cupertino, his sister Patti was plugging chips into the Apple I board on the coffee table in the living room while she watched TV. I looked at that and thought, 'I can do better than that.' And she already had a job at Taco Bell, as I recall, so I just kind of jumped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agreement was Steve would pay me $3.25 an hour, maybe $3.50, I'm sure it was the minimum wage. There was no electrical expertise required; all you had to do was pay attention and make sure the chip was not backwards and plug it in without bending the pins backwards and inspect the board. Then he taught me how to test the boards, which was not a technical thing. It was basically a factory assembly job. So I was just lucky to get that start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That summer didn't really lead anywhere. Apple could have easily folded that summer. What happened was they basically got one big purchase order from the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Terrell#Byte_Shop_and_Apple\">Byte Shop\u003c/a>. That happened before I arrived. Steve had the circuit boards and was filling orders. I helped him write the first flyer for the Apple I, and I kept him company when he was making rounds to the Byte Shops, delivering product. Steve was still probably affiliated with Atari; he brought me there and I filled out a job application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other thing that happened: Steve got me a job working for an hourly rate part-time assembling circuit boards for a company called Call Computer. I couldn't even read the resistor code. But basically I was given a kit of parts and each bag of parts had labels and I was given a schematic and I didn't know how to read it but it wasn't that hard, like putting together a puzzle or doing embroidery. That's when I first realized I had some aptitude for doing this kind of stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I went back to school and took an introduction to transistor theory class, which I didn’t take to too well. But by the spring of '77, \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Markkula\">Mike Markkula\u003c/a> had arrived, who was really the third founder of the company. They incorporated in January. He took a look at the situation and said, 'we can make money here.' Steve didn't know what to do. But Mike Markkula put in 90k to get the company going, so they could rent an office space, incorporate, get the board of directors and write a business plan, hire a president, Mike Scott, all the things that make a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a senior at Columbia College. I had a dual major of literature and music. By the middle of the spring of that year, Steve had said yeah, whenever you can come out here we have work for you, full time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.storiesofapple.net/jack-of-all-apple-trades-interview-with-bill-fernandez.html\">Bill Fernandez\u003c/a> was the first full-time employee of Apple, after it was incorporated. There's many different ways to count. I suppose Patti Jobs could be considered the first part-time employee, but if you don't count Patti then I was the first part-time employee. I was the first one who actually said yes, I want to do this, I'll help. Patti was kind of like watching TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I didn't show up for full-time work until the week I graduated college, in the spring of '77. That's when I came out west and became employee No. 12, and there was full-time work immediately. The Apple II boards were piling up and needed to be tested, and I quickly developed an aptitude for fixing them. So I became the chief technician.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>End Part 1\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":null,"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1593547636,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":39,"wordCount":2186},"headData":{"title":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on Company's Earliest Days and the College Steve Jobs | KQED","description":"Remembering Steve Jobs has almost become a cottage industry. Walter Isaacson's biography is No. 1 on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction li st; Steve Jobs: The Lost Interview has been playing in movie houses around the country; and a new e-book called "Letters to Steve" has collected Jobs' email responses to customer service queriesand","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on Company's Earliest Days and the College Steve Jobs","datePublished":"2011-11-25T21:15:06.000Z","dateModified":"2020-06-30T20:07:16.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"disqusIdentifier":"48300 http://ww2.kqed.org/news/?p=48300","disqusUrl":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/11/25/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college/","disqusTitle":"Interview: Apple Employee No. 12 Dan Kottke on Company's Earliest Days and the College Steve Jobs","path":"/news/48300/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_48362\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 225px\">\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/11/Daniel_Kottke.png\">\u003cimg class=\"size-medium wp-image-48362\" title=\"Daniel_Kottke\" src=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/11/Daniel_Kottke-225x300.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"225\" height=\"300\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dan Kottke (Photo: Wikipedia)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Remembering Steve Jobs has almost become a cottage industry. Walter Isaacson's biography is \u003ca href=\"http://www.nytimes.com/best-sellers-books/2011-11-27/hardcover-nonfiction/list.html\">No. 1\u003c/a> on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction li st; \u003ca href=\"http://www.stevejobsthelostinterview.com/\">Steve Jobs: The Lost Interview\u003c/a> has been playing in movie houses around the country; and a new e-book called \"\u003ca href=\"http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Steve-Inside-mail-ebook/dp/B006B16JLQ#reader_B006B16JLQ\">Letters to Steve\u003c/a>\" has collected \u003ca href=\"http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/22/tech/innovation/jobs-excerpt-customer-service/index.html\">Jobs' email responses to customer service queries\u003c/a>and other electronic correspondence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From our own archives, we've noticed a resurgence in interest in a Jobs-related post we put up over 10 months ago: \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/01/18/dan-kottke-early-apple-employee-on-steve-jobs/\">Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health\u003c/a>, conducted by KQED's Peter Jon Shuler after Jobs announced he would take a third medical leave of absence as Apple CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Jobs stepped down for good in August, Shuler again turned to Kottke, who first met Jobs when both attended Reed College in Oregon. Kottke and Jobs became close friends, traveling to India together, and Kottke went on to work for Apple in its very earliest days, before it was even incorporated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here is an edited transcript from the first part of the interview, in which Kottke talks about the young Steve Jobs and the nascent business he started. Kottke, who began with the company plugging chips into Apple I circuit boards, went on to work on the Apple II, Apple III, and Macintosh as a computer engineer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How did you meet Steve Jobs?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We met in the first few weeks freshman year at Reed College. Which is such a fertile and imprinting time of life. And Steve and I both happened to get copies of (a seminal book on yoga and meditation) \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Here_Now_%28book%29\">Be Here Now\u003c/a>\u003c/em>. It had just come out, in 1971, and it was our mutual interest in that book that started our friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had a friend in a different dorm, and one day in the first couple of weeks he said you should come meet this guy, he's interesting. And that was Steve jobs. Steve, I remember, had a big Teac reel-to-reel tape deck with lots of bootleg Dylan. It was a pretty expensive piece of gear; I don't know how he wangled that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then the other tie in was \u003ca href=\"http://macdailynews.com/2011/10/24/meet-the-lsd-love-guru-who-gave-steve-jobs-his-reality-distortion-field/\">Robert Friedland\u003c/a>, the student body president the year we were freshmen. That summer after our freshman year he went to India and was part of the \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em> scene. He was hanging with the people in that book. Somehow I and Steve got to know him. We had an interest in Indian philosophy and spirituality in general. It was Robert who had the idea we should go to India. I had no money. But Steve had found work at Atari so he had money, and we went to see the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/search?q=Kumbh+Mela\">Kumbh Mela\u003c/a>, the biggest religious gathering in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mutual interest in \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em> quickly led to \u003ca href=\"http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/\">Autobiography of a Yogi\u003c/a>. I had never read anything like that. Then \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna\">Ramakrishna\u003c/a> and his disciples, \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_consciousness\">cosmic consciousness\u003c/a> by Bucke – I think Steve turned me on to that one. \u003c!--more-->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You mentioned that Steve dropped out but continued to audit classes…\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think his parents loaned him the money for tuition, which might have been $8,000. It was a private college, so it wasn't cheap like a state school. Steve, using talents that proved valuable later in life, did a cost-benefit analysis and came to the conclusion that he didn't really need the college credit. He withdrew, got all his tuition money back, then went back to the dean and said, \"can I just audit some classes?\" He audited a few. He got good value for the money. I know he really liked Shakespeare and calligraphy and a drama class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Did you imagine then that those early influences might lead to what he was to accomplish later on?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I didn't. Not at all. Of course I didn't know he had a background in electronics. I didn't find out years later about the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box\">blue boxes\u003c/a>. I guess he didn’t see how I could contribute. I didn't know anything about electronics or phones. But he was selling blue boxes that year, our second year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He did bring Woz up to campus, and I met Woz. But we didn't talk about anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I realize now is those Silicon Valley kids were all doing electronics in high school. There was a flea market for electronics. Everybody around worked in electronics; all the fathers of all the kids. all worked either at Lockheed or HP or Varian. Steve's father worked at Spectra-Physics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve was a thoughtful, focused guy, and I really enjoyed my early conversations with him about wide-ranging topics in the world. We took psychedelics together on occasion and had good times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>In hindsight, do you see anything from that time that led to his later success? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think there was a lot of entrepreneurial spirit here in Silicon Valley. They weren't even calling it that at the time. I can remember running into Steve one day in the Reed coffee shop and he was drawing timing diagrams for some game he was working on at Atari. I had no idea what he was doing. I'd never seen anything like that. It was very foreign but he didn't seem interested in explaining it to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>At what point did you decide to stay here? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My girlfriend lived in Saratoga. I was coming to visit her and Steve. We were kindred spirits in many ways. I remember I first arrived on a Greyhound bus and Steve's father came to pick me up at the station here in Palo Alto and he had his Ford Ranchero with a laser beam installed in the engine compartment, and he had a big toggle switch on the dashboard that said \"laser.\" I thought that was wonderful. That's Silicon Valley for you. So his father was a tinkerer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That first trip when I came out, I was just trying to decide where to go to school. We probably went to the Los Altos zendo; Steve was very fond of that place. That was Steve's main social networking influence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Steve and Woz and their \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box\">blue box\u003c/a> activities -- the story I heard was that this article came out about \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Draper\">Captain Crunch\u003c/a>, a Vanity Fair article about \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking\">phone freaking\u003c/a>, probably about 1975. I think Woz was a student at Berkeley, and somehow they connected with Captain Crunch and got the keys, so to speak. They figured out how to work these things, and then Woz figured out how to design his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My guess is that it was Steve jobs who was the entrepreneur, who said let's make these things and sell them. It would be Woz's style just to build a prototype. That's an interesting question to ask Woz someday. I don't know how many they made, but they were all handmade I think. But they sold them, they made money. Before the Apple One, they were selling the blue boxes. But Steve never said a word to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>How did you get involved with Apple? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I had stayed in touch with Steve and by '75 I was ready to go back to school somewhere. I ended up applying to Columbia College and that's where I got my degree. During that year we wrote postcards. At some point that year he and I went up to \u003ca href=\"http://macdailynews.com/2011/10/24/meet-the-lsd-love-guru-who-gave-steve-jobs-his-reality-distortion-field/\">Robert Friedland\u003c/a>'s farm. It had a big apple orchard and Steve and I had both gone up there to pick apples. Simultaneously Steve had found Arnold Ehrtiz's \u003ca href=\"http://www.arnoldehret.org/healthclub/Forgotten_Foods.html\">mucousless diet\u003c/a>, a fruitarian diet healing system. I thought that was interesting, so the two of us were doing a fruitarian diet, eating apples. That's why the apple was in the air. And Robert was a very charismatic guy and has gone on to become a billionaire in his own right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I definitely see that Steve learned a lot from Robert. When we first met him at Reed he had done time in federal prison for being caught with tens of thousands of doses of LSD. That was impressive in a kind of an outlaw way. And he was applying for a Rhodes scholarship, as a convicted felon. I thought that was fascinating. So those were the combination of events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That book, \u003cem>Be Here Now\u003c/em>, plus \u003cem>On the Road\u003c/em>, was the biggest event of our freshman year. Because Robert had a personal connection into that whole scene, that was very compelling. And that's what led us going out to India, and me coming back to the west coast to visit, and to Robert's farm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I called Steve up in the spring of 1976 when I was in my junior year in Columbia, and he said, you know, we're doing this computer project and I said that's kind of interesting. There's no possible way anyone could tell it would be successful, there was a lot of hobbyist activity going on. So I'm trying to decide what to do for the summer, Steve said you can come help me, I said okay, and that was it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That was when we were doing the Apple I, and when I first showed up at the Jobs' house in Cupertino, his sister Patti was plugging chips into the Apple I board on the coffee table in the living room while she watched TV. I looked at that and thought, 'I can do better than that.' And she already had a job at Taco Bell, as I recall, so I just kind of jumped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The agreement was Steve would pay me $3.25 an hour, maybe $3.50, I'm sure it was the minimum wage. There was no electrical expertise required; all you had to do was pay attention and make sure the chip was not backwards and plug it in without bending the pins backwards and inspect the board. Then he taught me how to test the boards, which was not a technical thing. It was basically a factory assembly job. So I was just lucky to get that start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That summer didn't really lead anywhere. Apple could have easily folded that summer. What happened was they basically got one big purchase order from the \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Terrell#Byte_Shop_and_Apple\">Byte Shop\u003c/a>. That happened before I arrived. Steve had the circuit boards and was filling orders. I helped him write the first flyer for the Apple I, and I kept him company when he was making rounds to the Byte Shops, delivering product. Steve was still probably affiliated with Atari; he brought me there and I filled out a job application.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other thing that happened: Steve got me a job working for an hourly rate part-time assembling circuit boards for a company called Call Computer. I couldn't even read the resistor code. But basically I was given a kit of parts and each bag of parts had labels and I was given a schematic and I didn't know how to read it but it wasn't that hard, like putting together a puzzle or doing embroidery. That's when I first realized I had some aptitude for doing this kind of stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I went back to school and took an introduction to transistor theory class, which I didn’t take to too well. But by the spring of '77, \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Markkula\">Mike Markkula\u003c/a> had arrived, who was really the third founder of the company. They incorporated in January. He took a look at the situation and said, 'we can make money here.' Steve didn't know what to do. But Mike Markkula put in 90k to get the company going, so they could rent an office space, incorporate, get the board of directors and write a business plan, hire a president, Mike Scott, all the things that make a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was a senior at Columbia College. I had a dual major of literature and music. By the middle of the spring of that year, Steve had said yeah, whenever you can come out here we have work for you, full time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://www.storiesofapple.net/jack-of-all-apple-trades-interview-with-bill-fernandez.html\">Bill Fernandez\u003c/a> was the first full-time employee of Apple, after it was incorporated. There's many different ways to count. I suppose Patti Jobs could be considered the first part-time employee, but if you don't count Patti then I was the first part-time employee. I was the first one who actually said yes, I want to do this, I'll help. Patti was kind of like watching TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I didn't show up for full-time work until the week I graduated college, in the spring of '77. That's when I came out west and became employee No. 12, and there was full-time work immediately. The Apple II boards were piling up and needed to be tested, and I quickly developed an aptitude for fixing them. So I became the chief technician.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>End Part 1\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/48300/interview-apple-employee-no-12-dan-kottke-on-companys-earliest-days-and-steve-jobs-in-college","authors":["80","248"],"programs":["news_6944"],"categories":["news_1758","news_248"],"tags":["news_672","news_301"],"featImg":"news_42248","label":"news_6944"},"news_13076":{"type":"posts","id":"news_13076","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"13076","score":null,"sort":[1295378980000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"dan-kottke-early-apple-employee-on-steve-jobs","title":"Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health","publishDate":1295378980,"format":"aside","headTitle":"Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs’ Health | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":6944,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>Yesterday KQED’s Peter Jon Shuler interviewed \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kottke\">Daniel Kottke\u003c/a>, who was Apple employee No. 12, about his impressions of Jobs’ health the last time the two met. Kottke was a collaborator of Jobs and Steve Wozniak on the \u003ca href=\"http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=55\">first Apple computer\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jobs, who has been treated for cancer and underwent a liver transplant in 2009, is taking a third medical \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/01/17/steve-jobs-to-take-third-medical-leave-of-absence/\">leave of absence\u003c/a> as Apple CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3\">\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Peter Jon Shuler interviews Daniel Kottke\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>[audio:http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3] \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://www.digibarn.com/stories/dankottke/index.htm\">Daniel Kottke’s Amazing Apple Relics\u003c/a>\n\u003c/li>\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=1\">The Apple Museum\u003c/a>\n\u003c/li>\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":null,"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1685495955,"stats":{"hasAudio":true,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":6,"wordCount":101},"headData":{"title":"Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health | KQED","description":"Yesterday KQED's Peter Jon Shuler interviewed Daniel Kottke, who was Apple employee No. 12, about his impressions of Jobs' health the last time the two met. Kottke was a collaborator of Jobs and Steve Wozniak on the first Apple computer. Jobs, who has been treated for cancer and underwent a liver transplant in 2009, is","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Interview With Dan Kottke, Apple Employee No. 12, on Steve Jobs' Health","datePublished":"2011-01-18T19:29:40.000Z","dateModified":"2023-05-31T01:19:15.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/13076/dan-kottke-early-apple-employee-on-steve-jobs","audioUrl":"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/files/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3","audioDuration":null,"audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Yesterday KQED’s Peter Jon Shuler interviewed \u003ca href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kottke\">Daniel Kottke\u003c/a>, who was Apple employee No. 12, about his impressions of Jobs’ health the last time the two met. Kottke was a collaborator of Jobs and Steve Wozniak on the \u003ca href=\"http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=55\">first Apple computer\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jobs, who has been treated for cancer and underwent a liver transplant in 2009, is taking a third medical \u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2011/01/17/steve-jobs-to-take-third-medical-leave-of-absence/\">leave of absence\u003c/a> as Apple CEO.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3\">\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Peter Jon Shuler interviews Daniel Kottke\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"audio","attributes":{"named":{"label":":http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3"},"numeric":[":http://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2011/01/KottkeJobs.mp3"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://www.digibarn.com/stories/dankottke/index.htm\">Daniel Kottke’s Amazing Apple Relics\u003c/a>\n\u003c/li>\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index.php?id=1\">The Apple Museum\u003c/a>\n\u003c/li>\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/13076/dan-kottke-early-apple-employee-on-steve-jobs","authors":["80"],"programs":["news_6944"],"categories":["news_1758","news_248"],"tags":["news_672","news_301"],"label":"news_6944"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. 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