(Courtesy HannaRosin.com)

Simone de Beauvoir wrote, “This world has always belonged to males,” but author Hanna Rosin says that isn’t the case anymore. In Rosin’s new book “The End of Men and the Rise of Women,” she argues that women are winning in the new economy, surpassing men in education and at work, while continuing to exercise power at home. What gender role changes have you observed in work, pay, marriage, child rearing and sex? What do both sexes have to do to adapt?

Guests:
Hanna Rosin, author of "The End of Men and the Rise of Women," writer for The Atlantic and co-founder of Double X, Slate's site on women

  • Ayn Marx 666

    In five years’ working for a major telecomm’s R&D operation, I met exactly naught female developers and only one female manager—whose management style was, if anything, more stereotypically ‘male’ than the men’s.

    And, speaking frankly, I don’t care about the gender of the people who want to boss us around, take as much of our productivity as they can in return for as little as possible, grab an overwhelmingly disproportionate share of political power, and otherwise run the world for their benefit as opposed to ours (and it is)…it is what they do that we have to stop, irrespective of what equipment Nature has provided them.

  • Chemist150

    In a bad economy, companies can lay off an able body man without question at anytime for any reason.  Companies cannot lay off women as easily while trying to avoid lawsuits over being pregnant, having related medical issues, etc.  The laws are favoring women in the layoff market.  Laws of unintended consequence have struck.  I tell my wife that women got what they asked for, she has to bear the babies and support the family.

    • Terrifitz

      Not true. In any economy, employers can lay off anyone they want to. Women get laid off too. Lawsuits for sexual discrimination are no easy feat, especially if you just got laid off. Lawyers are expensive. ps. I don’t envy your wife.

      • Chemist150

        Thanks for the personal insult Terrifitz.

        However, you’ve not seen every situation…  
        Laws are lobsided for reason and are there influence behavior and to claim it does not is an argument not to have the law in the first place.  Thus, you’re claim is a weak one from the start just on the basis a law is enacted in the first place.  There are often unintended consequences from most policies.

      • Beth Grant DeRoos

        Your added ‘ps’ was uncalled for. 

        Fact is white males are often the first to be laid off since there are many government benefits for a company keeping a woman,minority or disabled worker. 

        • guest

          What government benefits?

        • Terrifitz

          Yes, what would those “benefits” be? Anytime I hear someone say “Fact is…” I know the next thing said has no relation to fact.

        • Beth Grant DeRoos

          Employers get tax credits when they hire women and minorities.
          First instituted in the 1960s and 1970s by employers and educational institutions in response to pressures from civil rights groups, federal legislation, and court rulings, preferential treatment programs seek to rectify the effects of past and ongoing discrimination against women and racial minorities.
          And federal government passed the first laws offering legislative provisions encouraging minority-owned businesses under President Richard Nixon’s administration. Nixon’s Executive Order 11458, passed in 1969, created the Office of Minority Business Enterprise (OMBE). Two years later, he expanded the agency to provide grants and management assistance to minority businesses. Eventually, the federal government renamed the OMBE to the Minority Business Development Agency (MBDA) and shifted the agency’s focus to providing funds rather than collecting information related to minority business opportunities.

    • guest

      Oh really.

      Have women really “got[ten] what they asked for”?

      Please continue. Cite any law (historically written and adjudicated by privileged white males) that favors females.

  • Fred

    I don’t care about a person’s gender so long as they aren’t a jerk, a greed-head, an outsourcer, or some other type of fiend along the lines of Carly Fiorina.

  • Noelle

    Why is it framed by the media as a zero- sum game? I’m tired of gender stereotypes taken as gospel too. 

  • Tony Rocco

    Would love to hear the guest discuss the differences in learning styles between men and women and what that implies vis a vis the kinds of jobs men and women are best suited for.

  • Alfie

    Let’s be honest. The “hookup culture” is really the HPV and Herpes culture.
    It involves geniuses.

  • Jeff

    I am a man, for the last ten years I was a elementary school teacher, my wife is an engineer. At home I do the cooking and most of the cleaning, my wife handles the money, and our children. It has been a natural extension of our talents, and not a conscious decision. Recently I moved into corporate training, and my managers are women, but that is something I am see as natural after being a teacher. 

  • mina

    alot of work out there right now are freelance works. in my experience women more than men prefer freelance work. esp. if they have kids. it gives them flexibilities.

    also women’s more detail-oriented and clearer communicators. they’re better suited for this economy where most work is done telecommuting.

    I’m often leery working on project where man is the project manager.. often the project kinda unravels at times due to bad communication, organization, or lack of overall thinking. men tend to let ego get into the way.. and have hard time step outside of their own personal preferences. which might not be good when they’re working on a project that does not target their own age range/gender. women are much able to step outside  of themselves and listen to other’s opionions and input.

  • Carrie

    Yes, women have broken down many cultural barriers. Is it time for men to do the same? I feel like our cultural expectations for males are still somewhat rigid and narrow.

    • guest

      I agree somewhat about the cultural barriers and expectations but men still dominate over women.

      Where it matters.

    • utera

      Have you? If you wanted to, you could sacrifice everything in persuit of power. Marry a house husband to help you on your way, the expectations are womens, not mens. It still works this way, women expect the men they will marry will earn more and be more educated than themselves. Not saying everyone achieves this, but that is the goal.

      There is a reason a toad like newt gingrich is on his 3rd marriage, while condi rice and elena keagan are single.

  • Rhet

    I almost wonder if outsourcing isn’t to some feminists an enjoyable phenomenon because they long to emasculate men, even if that means sending jobs to a police state like China.

    • Historian

      Bull. Many of the outsourced jobs (like textiles) were female dominated. Women want to work outside the home because 1. they don’t won’t to be dependent on an abusive male (whether now or in the future) 2. their partners don’t make enough to allow them or their children to survive without their income. Capitalists outsource to cut costs. It has nothing to do with US gender politics.

  • Tony Rocco

    What the hell does that does mean?

  • April – California

    When I got married 20 years ago …. my husband was uncomfortable and embarrassed when I started earning more income than he earned.
    Since then, I got divorced and then remarried 7 years ago.  My current husband has said that he would be happy to stay home and let me be the primary “bread winner” and certainly has no problem with my making more than he does.  Ahhhh … how the times are changing.

  • Robert Waring

    In my research over eleven years, I have observed that women have not translated the gains that Ms. Rosin describes into greater power and influence. For example,since the beginning of the new century, Women’s median income as percentage of men’s has remained flat The pay gap between men and women with four-year degrees has increased. Women’s percentage of directors of large corporations and of partners in large law firms has stayed flat. The extent of occupational gender segregation in various professions dominated by one gender is unchanged. Women’s representation in state legislatures again has remained flat. Women’s representation in statewide elective offices and as mayors of large and medium sized cities has gone down.Sources are the Catalyst, and the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and the Center for Women and Politics.
    I worry that the title and content of Ms. Rosin’s book sends the message that we don’t need to do anything else to increase women’s influence in society.
    Robert Waring , author of Upside Down: The Paradoxes of Gender in the Twenty-first Century.

    • utera

      You assume too much. 4 year degrees in what? What life choices have they made? Did they sacrifice all for power and career like many men do? The fact of the matter is that the more factors you take into account the sillier these claims of disparity get, because the devil is always in the details. When the claim is made that there is a wage gap, the more one looks into the details and take into account real world factors and choices the more the income gap actually shrinks, because you just can’t compare apples to oranges and then claim there is something unjust.

      Anyways what is a 4 year degree, it proves you are a good boy/girl and can take direction. Your assumption that this should lead to equal results in the real world is flawed. The real world, at least at the top levels you care about is based on initiative and creativity and as some have called it, grit….single minded determination and sacrifice, not about taking tests and regurgitating book material. Steve jobs, bill gates, zuckerberg, all drop outs. What does that say about a 4 year degree?

      One also has to deny a huge biological drive, women have children, and priorities change. More importantly a mans status both in education and power/status make him more desirable as a mate, that is not true the other way around. A woman best be young and attractive, power and wealth only come after this, and there is really nothing to be done about this as its just an innate biological drive. Incentives do matter. Men have to swim or sink, very few women will marry a house husband, no matter how good looking he is. Go ahead and look at who makes up the bulk of the homeless population, its men. Prisons? Men. With men you either make it or you don’t. Women tend to have the option of opting out if they are reasonably attractive..and that factor does matter.

      You worry about the message the book sends to society? How about worrying about the simplistic thinking that is the norm in society, the standard politically correct media narrative about sexism and the rest. What if the choices women naturally make are just different, who are you to say whats better, moving away and sacrificing all your free time in persuit of power and money? Or making time for family and friends, perhaps your assumptions about what is good is based on the idea that the default is male success, and everything should fit that to be correct in your eyes?

      Its notable there is little concern about getting women into construction work, or low level IT help desk, or to work as plumbers, electricians, even car mechanics. This concern for supposed equality is very selective.

  • Diaz

    A lot of the headhunters in California are women. In my experience, when headhunters are brought in to help a company, it’s an indication that a catastrophe has transpired at a company. The ethics of headhunting is interesting because there’s so little ethics involved and headhunters have no problem with that.

  • IlseVonHerzog

    Asking for a comment from Hanna…  I’ve always thought that if men went through the things women go through – menstruation, menopause, child birth…  that there would be a lot more flexibility in the workplace….  a day off once a month, guaranteed time off from work during menopause…  Men have no idea how hard these events can be.  (And on the flip side, how they strengthen us!)

    • Beth Grant DeRoos

      And in 2012 women are still not allowed to do front line duty in war, or go to war if pregnant.   If we are going to have equality lets have equality in ALL areas.

      Still very few women in heavy labor jobs like coal mines, oil drilling.

      • Roy-in-Boise

        Pregnancy is not a disability but it also is a natural condition that has no place on the front lines. Support arms is OK but combat arms — no way!

  • Mike from Chico

    I can not believe in 2012 that you can pay 2 people doing the same job at the same quality level differently based on gender. This Supreme Court has passed over conservative and gone right to reactionary. Once they get rid of affirmative action and the laws for campaign finance reform, i figure to see them go straight for the 14th amendment. I know its overly sensational, but I wonder what they think of the 19th?

  • Gmbiery

    Decline of the Home

  • Donovan

    I am interested in what the future relationships will look like. Statistics show more professionals will be women in the future. Most women look for equals or better in relationships. What kinds of men will be out there for them? Will they have to be forced to lower their standards?

  • Afromations

    Let’s be honest. Men are loosing their “gonads.” The major contributor to this is technology. In a primitive setting, women need men to protect them. Depending on the level of technology and social development allows women to forget their importance. It is wonderful their nature of rearing a child. Society (US) has made it seem an inconvenience and undesirable. The more security women get, the more they lose their true natural function. Women are great. My wife is so amazing and I’ll support her in every way– we both are a working couple with 2 kids.
    I do think that men are lazier than they use to be… I try to get involved and do, but regardless the effort; mom is the go to person—with a 2.5 yr old and a 3mo. Interesting conversation.

  • Afromations

    It is also confusing for men during this women’s lib. Open the door, she says I can do it myself — don’t open it, Im not a gentleman…

  • Diaz

    American women are still less aggressive in seeking out male sexual partners than European women. The specter of Puritanism still hounds and afflicts them and dare I say emasculates women.

  • Jim

    How can we fathers and uncles get the young daughters and nieces in our lives get more quality exposure to Hanna?  She’s one of the most articulate and clear thinking women I’ve heard. Young women NEED to hear more of Hanna’s thinking—to DRIVE their own lives. 

  • Roy-in-Boise

    My daughter’s Mom was born in the mid-50’s. She was initially raised to believe that she would grow up to be a mother and a homeworker.
    By the 1970’s that societal expectation changed whereas my 3 girls have always known that  they would grow up to take a place in the work place outside the home. Hence, I have 2 lawyers in the pipeline and a graduate student in physics.

    For women in the 1st world the times they have certainly changed and the people they have rearrange.

  • Guest

    You are SOOOO behind the times.  I have had a “male-job” for my entire adult life and my son, who is 6’3″ 180lbs knows how to sew. He works with canvas, ropes, beaners, etc.  Your message is decades OLD.  Please get up to speed and to-date.

    I had ONE child and my son has ONE child, so we are doing what we are suppose to do…not littering the earth. WE all know how to sew and to cook and climb cliffs, which is our entertainment and activity.

    Where have you been?  Get out of that recliner and leave the City…go to the Park, you know the big one nearby, such as, Yosemite.

    Geezzzzzz, this is disgusting coming from KQED.

    • guest

      Your demonstrative dismissal appears to be based on the singular personal experience of you and your son.

  • Philip

    My wife is the alpha-earner in my household. The hardest part for me has
    been the slow winding down of my own successful business after we had
    kids. I thought I could do both and have it all, but for our family it
    was pretty clear with both of us working we were unable to parent the
    children successfully.  The male psyche and our culture make it very
    difficult for a man to take pride in being a stay at home dad. I used to
    say with pride that I was a business owner. People would nod
    approvingly. Now, people look at me, the stay at home dad, and I can see
    in their eyes they think I’m a freeloader. The irony is that working
    was much easier than parenting.  

    • SlySy

      Welcome to our world Philip, now you know how women have felt throughout history. Always being told being a wife and a mother wasn’t a real work, always treated like what we did was less important. I hope this has given you a better understanding of the opposite sex.

  • Afromations

    Deborah was the leader of Israel in the book of Judges.

  • Emily

    What is the research saying about the well being of kids spending so much time in day care? Are they paying a high price for so many women and men no longer raising their own kids?

  • Matt

    I come from a Silicon valley family of engineers and scientists that has long experienced this role-reversal trend. My Mother ultimately made more money in her lifetime than my Father, and my wife makes more money than I do, although all of us have strong academic credentials. And I see this effect with my colleagues as well, with wives supporting their families while the men struggle to find work.

    Over the years I have developed my own theory about this. Basically, women are far better employees. From an employer’s point of view, why would anyone hire a man, when

    1. Women will work twice as hard as men for 70% of the pay. Perhaps this is because women are more risk-averse then men, and thus willing to give up more to retain a sense of stability, while men have a more “what’s in it for me” attitude, and are thus a much greater hassle.

    2. women will often enlist the help of others in their job, especially their spouses, for help with things they are not comfortable with, while a man will typically try to conquer problems on his own. In this way, the employer gets the spouse’s help for free.

    3. Bosses may feel entitled to demand more from women, because with men there is always some risk, however small, of violent retribution, while no such risk is perceived from women.

    In the end, women may be shooting themselves in the foot, because they now provide better service to the so-called “1%” corporate bosses than their spouses would, while making their husbands into dependents that are essentially useless around the house. They dedicate their greatest effort to those “up the ladder”, instead of their families, – perhaps the real reason for the growing the wealth gap? Men, inferior as they are in doing an honest day’s job, are nonetheless better at keeping the bosses in-check.

    Perhaps this trend, which we see as women’s rise to power, is quite the opposite – and maybe, just maybe, it was orchestrated by a very smart rich man at the top, after all.

  • MK

    Other than the economy change, I think the fact the females are viewed as better communicators also play a role.  Have you asked why California has two females senators? It may have something to do with the view that females are easier to work across racial lines. I’m an Asian and got a son and a daughter who speak fluent English, but I can see the difference how they interact with the other races. Frankly, I’m more worried for the guys.

  • SlySy

    What I have noticed is that despite the machismo and the bravado, many men are emotionally very fragile and with little resilience. Their egos need to be constantly stroked to feel good about themselves, they often have to be arrogant and put others down to feel better about themselves, they don’t know how to deal constructively with negative emotions, criticism, and frustration. Look at all the men panicking because they can’t treat women as inferior any more. Look at their egos buckling under the unspeakable pressure of being with a woman that makes more than them, or even, imagine that, staying home with the kids. 

    While I don’t like to see the gender issue as a race in which one wins and one loses, I do see the point when the guest says women are better equipped for the challenges ahead. I don’t think this applies to all women, but certainly many of them.

  • Beth Grant DeRoos

    Suze Orman doesn’t give women a pass when it comes to poor money management and neither do I.  And I also believe if you choose to have a child that from birth on you need to realize their needs (not wants) come first and this included breastfeeding. And as the one man noted the guest does come off as a sexist, when it comes to men.  Remember its men who get sent to the front line in war.  Where are the women signing up to be coal miners, oil rig workers?  

  • AllBridges

    Praise the Lord. It’s about time. As a male I welcome the “fall” of men and the “rise” of women, especially when posited in this binary. I’ve never seen an unhappy alpha, male lion on the savannah with lionesses shouldering most of the workload. Three cheers to women rising and men kicking back (oops, I meant FALLING).     🙂

  • utera

    Problem is still selective equality. If the population pools start off so differently that 90% of prisoners are men, and that figure shows no real sign of changing, then how can one claim that one needs quotas in this or that area based on the assumption that the natural gender division would be 50/50. She says that women should be given extra incentive to enter engineering and the rest, well what if the natural number of women in that sector is low, then the incentives only distort the education and work market against men for no reason at all other than the fact that some people make baseless assumptions selectively. If she really were fair minded then any female dominated sector should provide the same incentives to men that enter them.

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