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They read the newspaper together. They dance together. They sleep in the same bed and complain about each other’s farts. The older of the two, Yi Yan Fuei, is 96. The younger, Chang Li Hua, is 86. They’re in-laws but they act more like sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Wang, their 29-year-old grandson, was getting into filmmaking, one of the first he made was a short where Yi and Chang feed him blueberries. When Sean refuses, they kill him and bury him in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13951958']Wang kept shooting them in their Bay Area home, especially after he moved back in with his nearby mom during the pandemic. They got accustomed to his camera being around. But they never thought it would lead to the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em>, Wang’s deeply charming portrait of his grandmothers, is nominated for best documentary short at the Academy Awards. In it, Wang films Yi and Chang going about their daily lives with bits of playfulness mixed in. They arm wrestle. They play dress-up. They watch \u003cem>Superbad\u003c/em>. But mostly, \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em>, which translates as maternal grandmother and paternal grandmother in Mandarin, captures the joy of two spirited ladies in older age as they occasionally chide their grandson’s attempts to turn them into movie stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlyYimV6Qqw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you first asked us to be movie stars, we were like, ‘This must be a joke,’” Chang says in an interview by Zoom alongside Yi, with Wang joining from Los Angeles. “But now that we made this movie and it’s going to the Oscars, we do kind of feel like movie stars. Now that this whole experience has happened, we do feel a little prettier.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Oscar nominations were announced last month, it wasn’t Bradley Cooper’s or Emma Stone’s reactions that went viral. It was the celebration, caught on video, of Yi and Chang, with Wang, his mom and producer Sam Davis standing over them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCNMXENmOpk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the film, which is streaming on Disney+, Yi and Chang reflect on mortality and the essential things in life. “As long as I have the newspaper, I can live,” says Yi in the film, with magnifying glass in hand. Now, they’re in the news, themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day I open the newspaper and if I got to see you, that’d be amazing,” Yi tells Wang, who, after translating, shrugged: “I don’t think we’ve made it into the Taiwanese newspapers yet.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13880441']A prominent news story a few years ago partly inspired Wang to make the movie. During the pandemic, when Asian and Asian-American hate crimes were escalating, he saw his grandmothers as a perfect antidote to the hateful stereotyping that followed COVID-19. At the same time, the short, which premiered last year at SXSW, was meant to essentially just be a simple home movie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of why we made this movie,” Wang says. “It’s just so we could have this recollection, this time capsule that captures the essence of these two women. Long after they’ve passed away, we can have some sort of memento to remember what their lives were like.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yi and Chang both grew up in poverty in wartime Taiwan. Their vivacious attitude (“Doesn’t matter if we know how to dance,” Chang says in the film. “We’ll shake our hips.”) is a conscious reaction to hardship they’ve experienced. In the film, Chang notes that days spent sad pass the same as those spent happy. “So I’m going to choose joy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was so much pain in our childhoods,” Chang says now, tearing up. “Our late lives are so much more fortunate than what we experienced when we were young. And then to be surrounded by our family, there’s so much more joy around us than when we were young.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13914487']That includes Wang who, when not brightening the days of his grandmothers, has emerged as one of the breakthrough filmmakers of the year. At the same time that \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em> was landing its Oscar nomination, Wang’s feature film directorial debut, \u003cem>Dìdi\u003c/em>, was a sensation at the Sundance Film Festival.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Sundance, \u003cem>Dìdi\u003c/em>, a semi-autobiographical coming-of-age comedy about a teenage Taiwanese American skater kid growing up in Los Angeles, won the U.S Dramatic Audience Award and the special jury award for best ensemble cast — a cast that includes Chang as the mother-in-law. Focus acquired the film, the title of which can mean both “little brother” or a term of endearment for a family’s youngest son in Mandarin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Surreal and bonkers,” Wang says of the twin successes. “To have these spotlights on global platforms for these stories that come from such a deep personal place is bonkers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A through line for Wang in his rapidly unfolding filmography is family. An earlier short of his, \u003cem>3,000 Miles\u003c/em>, tenderly stitches together voicemails left by his mother while Wang was living in New York. It concludes sweetly in their reunion. To Wang, his role as a filmmaker is to consider his strongest emotions — and more often than not, those feelings are connected to family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13951641']“Making films about my family helps me bridge the gap in my life as a human — seeing my mom not just as my mom or my grandmother not just as my grandmother but as people,” Wang says. “I’m still learning to bridge that gap.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, Wang’s family life will converge, of all places, at the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to the Oscars and I’m going with my grandmas,” Wang says, smiling. “It’s just, like, a sentence I never thought I would say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Yi and Chang describe their feelings about attending the Oscars with their grandson in excited unison. “Wonderful! Wonderful!” they shout in English. Asked who they’re looking forward to meeting, Chang considers for a moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Will Ang Lee be there?” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But amid their disbelief, Chang and Yi think there’s an important lesson to be found in the success of \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em> that doesn’t have to do with them, but in the grandson behind the camera. Even if the film concludes with Chang cursing Wang as a “freakin’ brat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want people to realize, especially parents: Don’t force your children to walk the path that you want them to walk,” Yi says. “Encourage them and support them in their interests, and be open to the paths that they’re naturally gravitating towards. Try to water those seeds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yi and Chang have become famous enough that casting directors have reached out to Wang about other movies. Wang recently relayed an audition offer to Chang for a film shooting in New York. She said she’d have to read the script first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Says Wang: “They’re offer only.”\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"‘Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó,’ Sean Wang’s charming portrait of his grandmas, is nominated for best documentary short.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1708018968,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":27,"wordCount":1301},"headData":{"title":"Sean Wang Talks Oscars, Grandmas and ‘Bonkers’ Success | KQED","description":"‘Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó,’ Sean Wang’s charming portrait of his grandmas, is nominated for best documentary short.","ogTitle":"A Fremont Filmmaker Is Heading to the Oscars — With His Grandmothers","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"A Fremont Filmmaker Is Heading to the Oscars — With His Grandmothers","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Sean Wang Talks Oscars, Grandmas and ‘Bonkers’ Success %%page%% %%sep%% KQED"},"sticky":false,"nprByline":"Jake Coyle, Associated Press","templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13952306/sean-wang-oscars-grandma-movie-fremont-wai-po-nai-nai","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sean Wang’s two grandmothers live together. They read the newspaper together. They dance together. They sleep in the same bed and complain about each other’s farts. The older of the two, Yi Yan Fuei, is 96. The younger, Chang Li Hua, is 86. They’re in-laws but they act more like sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Wang, their 29-year-old grandson, was getting into filmmaking, one of the first he made was a short where Yi and Chang feed him blueberries. When Sean refuses, they kill him and bury him in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13951958","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Wang kept shooting them in their Bay Area home, especially after he moved back in with his nearby mom during the pandemic. They got accustomed to his camera being around. But they never thought it would lead to the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em>, Wang’s deeply charming portrait of his grandmothers, is nominated for best documentary short at the Academy Awards. In it, Wang films Yi and Chang going about their daily lives with bits of playfulness mixed in. They arm wrestle. They play dress-up. They watch \u003cem>Superbad\u003c/em>. But mostly, \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em>, which translates as maternal grandmother and paternal grandmother in Mandarin, captures the joy of two spirited ladies in older age as they occasionally chide their grandson’s attempts to turn them into movie stars.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/JlyYimV6Qqw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/JlyYimV6Qqw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you first asked us to be movie stars, we were like, ‘This must be a joke,’” Chang says in an interview by Zoom alongside Yi, with Wang joining from Los Angeles. “But now that we made this movie and it’s going to the Oscars, we do kind of feel like movie stars. Now that this whole experience has happened, we do feel a little prettier.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Oscar nominations were announced last month, it wasn’t Bradley Cooper’s or Emma Stone’s reactions that went viral. It was the celebration, caught on video, of Yi and Chang, with Wang, his mom and producer Sam Davis standing over them.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/iCNMXENmOpk'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/iCNMXENmOpk'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>In the film, which is streaming on Disney+, Yi and Chang reflect on mortality and the essential things in life. “As long as I have the newspaper, I can live,” says Yi in the film, with magnifying glass in hand. Now, they’re in the news, themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every day I open the newspaper and if I got to see you, that’d be amazing,” Yi tells Wang, who, after translating, shrugged: “I don’t think we’ve made it into the Taiwanese newspapers yet.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13880441","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>A prominent news story a few years ago partly inspired Wang to make the movie. During the pandemic, when Asian and Asian-American hate crimes were escalating, he saw his grandmothers as a perfect antidote to the hateful stereotyping that followed COVID-19. At the same time, the short, which premiered last year at SXSW, was meant to essentially just be a simple home movie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of why we made this movie,” Wang says. “It’s just so we could have this recollection, this time capsule that captures the essence of these two women. Long after they’ve passed away, we can have some sort of memento to remember what their lives were like.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yi and Chang both grew up in poverty in wartime Taiwan. Their vivacious attitude (“Doesn’t matter if we know how to dance,” Chang says in the film. “We’ll shake our hips.”) is a conscious reaction to hardship they’ve experienced. In the film, Chang notes that days spent sad pass the same as those spent happy. “So I’m going to choose joy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was so much pain in our childhoods,” Chang says now, tearing up. “Our late lives are so much more fortunate than what we experienced when we were young. And then to be surrounded by our family, there’s so much more joy around us than when we were young.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13914487","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That includes Wang who, when not brightening the days of his grandmothers, has emerged as one of the breakthrough filmmakers of the year. At the same time that \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em> was landing its Oscar nomination, Wang’s feature film directorial debut, \u003cem>Dìdi\u003c/em>, was a sensation at the Sundance Film Festival.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Sundance, \u003cem>Dìdi\u003c/em>, a semi-autobiographical coming-of-age comedy about a teenage Taiwanese American skater kid growing up in Los Angeles, won the U.S Dramatic Audience Award and the special jury award for best ensemble cast — a cast that includes Chang as the mother-in-law. Focus acquired the film, the title of which can mean both “little brother” or a term of endearment for a family’s youngest son in Mandarin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Surreal and bonkers,” Wang says of the twin successes. “To have these spotlights on global platforms for these stories that come from such a deep personal place is bonkers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A through line for Wang in his rapidly unfolding filmography is family. An earlier short of his, \u003cem>3,000 Miles\u003c/em>, tenderly stitches together voicemails left by his mother while Wang was living in New York. It concludes sweetly in their reunion. To Wang, his role as a filmmaker is to consider his strongest emotions — and more often than not, those feelings are connected to family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13951641","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Making films about my family helps me bridge the gap in my life as a human — seeing my mom not just as my mom or my grandmother not just as my grandmother but as people,” Wang says. “I’m still learning to bridge that gap.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, Wang’s family life will converge, of all places, at the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re going to the Oscars and I’m going with my grandmas,” Wang says, smiling. “It’s just, like, a sentence I never thought I would say.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Yi and Chang describe their feelings about attending the Oscars with their grandson in excited unison. “Wonderful! Wonderful!” they shout in English. Asked who they’re looking forward to meeting, Chang considers for a moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Will Ang Lee be there?” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But amid their disbelief, Chang and Yi think there’s an important lesson to be found in the success of \u003cem>Nǎi Nai and Wài Pó\u003c/em> that doesn’t have to do with them, but in the grandson behind the camera. Even if the film concludes with Chang cursing Wang as a “freakin’ brat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I want people to realize, especially parents: Don’t force your children to walk the path that you want them to walk,” Yi says. “Encourage them and support them in their interests, and be open to the paths that they’re naturally gravitating towards. Try to water those seeds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yi and Chang have become famous enough that casting directors have reached out to Wang about other movies. Wang recently relayed an audition offer to Chang for a film shooting in New York. She said she’d have to read the script first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Says Wang: “They’re offer only.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13952306/sean-wang-oscars-grandma-movie-fremont-wai-po-nai-nai","authors":["byline_arts_13952306"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_74","arts_75"],"tags":["arts_3701","arts_13672","arts_7496","arts_1050","arts_3698"],"featImg":"arts_13952317","label":"arts"},"arts_13952301":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13952301","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13952301","score":null,"sort":[1707938152000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"franklin-peanuts-special-new-apple-tv-movie","title":"Franklin From ‘Peanuts’ Gets to Shine in the Spotlight of a New Apple TV+ Special","publishDate":1707938152,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Franklin From ‘Peanuts’ Gets to Shine in the Spotlight of a New Apple TV+ Special | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>The mild-mannered Franklin — the first Black character in the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> comic strip — gets to shine in his own animated Apple TV+ special this month in a story about friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Franklin is a newcomer who bonds with Charlie Brown and is welcomed to the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> universe in \u003cem>Snoopy Presents: Welcome Home, Franklin\u003c/em>, which premieres on Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13852729']Co-writer \u003ca href=\"https://www.robbarmstrong.com/\">Robb Armstrong\u003c/a>, the cartoonist behind the \u003cem>JumpStart\u003c/em> strip, says he’s building on the blueprints that \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> creator Charles Schulz left. “Whenever you start with good ingredients, you have to work hard to make a bad cake out of it,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Race is never explicitly mentioned but Armstrong and co-writer Scott Montgomery make a subtle nod when Franklin surveys the kids in his new town and remarks, “One thing was for sure: There was a lack of variety in this place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never wanted to come off preachy or anything, but it needed to be handled in the same way that I handled it in \u003cem>JumpStart\u003c/em>,” says Armstrong. “I don’t come out and call people anything. I let the characters participate in a problem solving process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The portrait of Franklin that emerges is of a boy who likes baseball and outer space, is good with his hands and listens to Stevie Wonder, Little Richard, James Brown and John Coltrane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he arrives in town, he’s tired of a life constantly moving, since his father’s military job takes them from location to location. “I have lived in lot of different places but none that I can call home,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But his introduction to the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> gang initially goes poorly. He mistakes Lucy’s psychiatric booth for a lemonade stand and he freaks Linus out by picking a pumpkin from his patch. “If I didn’t know better, I’d swear I was in \u003cem>The Twilight Zone\u003c/em>,” Franklin says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every time he’s moved, he’s had to learn how to make friends quick and that meant that he didn’t feel he could ever be his authentic self,” said director and story editor Raymond S. Persi. “So when he comes to this town, his normal tricks don’t work because these are kind of weird kids.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_10870599']Franklin made his first appearance in the newspaper strip on July 31, 1968, prompted by a request from a school teacher for Schulz to integrate his comic strip world in the wake of the assassination of The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Schulz introduced him by having Franklin return Charlie Brown’s wayward beach ball one day by the sea. It was a historical meeting and a statement: Many public beaches, like other public facilities such as schools, swimming pools, theaters and restaurants, were segregated at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new Apple TV+ special recreates that first meeting, with Franklin returning Charlie Brown’s errant beach ball and then the two building a sandcastle together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To have this very simple idea of two children who don’t know about racism, having fun playing at the beach, building something together, I think was just so smart,” said Persi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go–Gzu_qGg\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Franklin and Charlie Brown soon enter a soap box derby competition and their friendship is tested before a deep bond is forged. “They’re not perfect. I’m not perfect. But we can get through the rough spots together, as friends,” Franklin says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What I really like about the special is you’re getting a chance to see this friendship kind of grow in real time, in the way that real friendships do,” says Persi, who has directed animated projects with \u003cem>The Simpsons\u003c/em>, Mickey Mouse and the Minions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As usual for a \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> show, music plays a key role. Original music by Jeff Morrow leans into sophisticated jazz and, in nods to Franklin, Berry’s “Johnny B. Goode,” “Nothing from Nothing” by Billy Preston and some Coltrane playing on a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13938421']Armstrong has also used the special to correct some misperceptions about the 1973 classic \u003cem>A Charlie Brown Thanksgiving\u003c/em>. In that special, Franklin sits by himself on one side of the Thanksgiving table, leading some to suggest he’s not been fully embraced. In the new special, Franklin is specifically asked to come sit with his new pals on their side during a pizza party celebration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Armstrong says he started with that scene and then had to figure out how the gang got there. The writers came up with a soap box derby. “We needed something that was very highly action-oriented and packed with great risk. It had to be a competition,” Armstrong says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The special has plenty of lessons for kids and adults — winning isn’t everything, friendships can be messy but rewarding, and be your authentic self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What I’d like people to get out of it is that you don’t have to be something different for other people. Being yourself is what’s going to bring the right people into your lives,” says Persi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Armstrong, who grew up revering Schulz, has a deep connection to Franklin. He became a cartoonist and a friend to Schulz. It was Schulz himself who asked the younger cartoonist if he would lend his last name to the character. So to have him years later spotlight Franklin in a TV special seems almost divine intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes a miracle happens,” says Armstrong. “If someone’s got a better answer, I’d love to hear it. I’m just convinced that sometimes God gets involved. And this is that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-medium wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-800x78.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Snoopy Presents: Welcome Home, Franklin’ begins streaming on Apple TV+ on Feb. 16, 2024.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The portrait that emerges is of a boy who likes baseball, outer space, James Brown and working with his hands. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1707938152,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":26,"wordCount":1011},"headData":{"title":"New ‘Peanuts’ Special Shines a Light on Franklin | KQED","description":"The portrait that emerges is of a boy who likes baseball, outer space, James Brown and working with his hands. ","ogTitle":"Franklin From ‘Peanuts’ Gets to Shine in the Spotlight of a New Apple TV+ Special","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Franklin From ‘Peanuts’ Gets to Shine in the Spotlight of a New Apple TV+ Special","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"New ‘Peanuts’ Special Shines a Light on Franklin%%page%% %%sep%% KQED"},"sticky":false,"nprByline":"Mark Kennedy, Associated Press","templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13952301/franklin-peanuts-special-new-apple-tv-movie","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The mild-mannered Franklin — the first Black character in the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> comic strip — gets to shine in his own animated Apple TV+ special this month in a story about friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Franklin is a newcomer who bonds with Charlie Brown and is welcomed to the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> universe in \u003cem>Snoopy Presents: Welcome Home, Franklin\u003c/em>, which premieres on Friday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13852729","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Co-writer \u003ca href=\"https://www.robbarmstrong.com/\">Robb Armstrong\u003c/a>, the cartoonist behind the \u003cem>JumpStart\u003c/em> strip, says he’s building on the blueprints that \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> creator Charles Schulz left. “Whenever you start with good ingredients, you have to work hard to make a bad cake out of it,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Race is never explicitly mentioned but Armstrong and co-writer Scott Montgomery make a subtle nod when Franklin surveys the kids in his new town and remarks, “One thing was for sure: There was a lack of variety in this place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never wanted to come off preachy or anything, but it needed to be handled in the same way that I handled it in \u003cem>JumpStart\u003c/em>,” says Armstrong. “I don’t come out and call people anything. I let the characters participate in a problem solving process.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The portrait of Franklin that emerges is of a boy who likes baseball and outer space, is good with his hands and listens to Stevie Wonder, Little Richard, James Brown and John Coltrane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he arrives in town, he’s tired of a life constantly moving, since his father’s military job takes them from location to location. “I have lived in lot of different places but none that I can call home,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But his introduction to the \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> gang initially goes poorly. He mistakes Lucy’s psychiatric booth for a lemonade stand and he freaks Linus out by picking a pumpkin from his patch. “If I didn’t know better, I’d swear I was in \u003cem>The Twilight Zone\u003c/em>,” Franklin says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every time he’s moved, he’s had to learn how to make friends quick and that meant that he didn’t feel he could ever be his authentic self,” said director and story editor Raymond S. Persi. “So when he comes to this town, his normal tricks don’t work because these are kind of weird kids.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_10870599","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Franklin made his first appearance in the newspaper strip on July 31, 1968, prompted by a request from a school teacher for Schulz to integrate his comic strip world in the wake of the assassination of The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Schulz introduced him by having Franklin return Charlie Brown’s wayward beach ball one day by the sea. It was a historical meeting and a statement: Many public beaches, like other public facilities such as schools, swimming pools, theaters and restaurants, were segregated at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new Apple TV+ special recreates that first meeting, with Franklin returning Charlie Brown’s errant beach ball and then the two building a sandcastle together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To have this very simple idea of two children who don’t know about racism, having fun playing at the beach, building something together, I think was just so smart,” said Persi.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Go'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Go'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Franklin and Charlie Brown soon enter a soap box derby competition and their friendship is tested before a deep bond is forged. “They’re not perfect. I’m not perfect. But we can get through the rough spots together, as friends,” Franklin says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What I really like about the special is you’re getting a chance to see this friendship kind of grow in real time, in the way that real friendships do,” says Persi, who has directed animated projects with \u003cem>The Simpsons\u003c/em>, Mickey Mouse and the Minions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As usual for a \u003cem>Peanuts\u003c/em> show, music plays a key role. Original music by Jeff Morrow leans into sophisticated jazz and, in nods to Franklin, Berry’s “Johnny B. Goode,” “Nothing from Nothing” by Billy Preston and some Coltrane playing on a jukebox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13938421","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Armstrong has also used the special to correct some misperceptions about the 1973 classic \u003cem>A Charlie Brown Thanksgiving\u003c/em>. In that special, Franklin sits by himself on one side of the Thanksgiving table, leading some to suggest he’s not been fully embraced. In the new special, Franklin is specifically asked to come sit with his new pals on their side during a pizza party celebration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Armstrong says he started with that scene and then had to figure out how the gang got there. The writers came up with a soap box derby. “We needed something that was very highly action-oriented and packed with great risk. It had to be a competition,” Armstrong says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The special has plenty of lessons for kids and adults — winning isn’t everything, friendships can be messy but rewarding, and be your authentic self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What I’d like people to get out of it is that you don’t have to be something different for other people. Being yourself is what’s going to bring the right people into your lives,” says Persi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Armstrong, who grew up revering Schulz, has a deep connection to Franklin. He became a cartoonist and a friend to Schulz. It was Schulz himself who asked the younger cartoonist if he would lend his last name to the character. So to have him years later spotlight Franklin in a TV special seems almost divine intervention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sometimes a miracle happens,” says Armstrong. “If someone’s got a better answer, I’d love to hear it. I’m just convinced that sometimes God gets involved. And this is that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-medium wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-800x78.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Snoopy Presents: Welcome Home, Franklin’ begins streaming on Apple TV+ on Feb. 16, 2024.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13952301/franklin-peanuts-special-new-apple-tv-movie","authors":["byline_arts_13952301"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_74","arts_75","arts_990"],"tags":["arts_4262","arts_1050","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13952302","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13951872":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13951872","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13951872","score":null,"sort":[1707420136000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"chelsea-wolfes-new-album-she-reaches-out-to-she-loma-vista","title":"Chelsea Wolfe Says Witchcraft and Sobriety Informed Her Latest Album","publishDate":1707420136,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Chelsea Wolfe Says Witchcraft and Sobriety Informed Her Latest Album | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>Often in popular culture, witchcraft is associated with a kind of feminist reclamation of power and spite-fueled revenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And although Chelsea Wolfe’s new album is arguably her most spiritual yet, dripping with poetic lyricism about tarot, underworlds and bathing in blood, the process of making it has been marked by a time of healing, joy and relinquishing control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over the years, as I’ve embraced a path of witchcraft and following the cycles of the seasons and the cycles of the moon, I put that into my writing process a lot, and I’ve started to share that more because this has been such a positive, wonderful thing in my life,” Wolfe explains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13951564']Witchcraft’s influence has meant an increased attentiveness to letting each record “be what it wants to be,” the singer, songwriter and musician says — which can sometimes be overtly mystical, like pulling a tarot card for “clarity and guidance” on what she is about to write, or more ostensibly mundane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take, for example, her songwriting process for \u003cem>She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She\u003c/em>. Although Wolfe frequently brings nearly finished demos to the studio to be fine-tuned and recorded for an album, this time around, she decided to work with producer Dave Sitek, who heavily transformed her rock-sounding songs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This one felt like it wanted to lean more electronic, a little bit more of that trip-hop influence that I’ve dabbled with over the years,” she says of her embrace of the genre which blends hip-hop and electronica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0o2GraeMlo\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while Wolfe is pleased with where she allowed those songs to go, it was still difficult to let it happen after years of holding onto them during the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you do have a lot of time to sit with the demos, sometimes it can be hard to then give them over to someone and hear all the changes,” she says. “But something about this place in my life and kind of what this record is about, thematically, it just felt right.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Part of what informed this idea of letting go and shedding exoskeletons — “a spectral reminder of all that we’ve become,” she sings in one song — was beginning a journey of sobriety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_114628']“I got sober from alcohol in early 2021, and I had already started this record. It’s interesting to kind of hear the songs that I started before that and the way that they changed,” she recalls. “That created a lot of openness and clarity in my life and my creativity that I just was then naturally channeling into this music. It became a lot about rebirth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wolfe’s music is hard to categorize, but she is known for her tendency to blend folk music with heavier subgenres like gothic rock and doom metal. She’s aware of the specific taste required for people to enjoy it — “It’s not party music,” she laughs — but has never been afraid to stand her creative ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s been collaborations that I’ve been asked to do that I felt like they just weren’t right for me. And maybe it would have given me a lot of exposure or more payment down the line,” she says. “I try to live simply and not have to do things that I don’t feel like I’m aligned with just for money. I know that’s a privilege.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she has found resourceful ways, in addition to touring, to make a living with which she feels artistically comfortable, such as collaborating with composer Tyler Bates on the soundtrack for the 2022 slasher film, \u003cem>X\u003c/em>, which stars Mia Goth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Director Ti West remembers wanting to experiment with a more avant-garde sound and talking to Bates about how best to achieve it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I kind of pitched this idea to Tyler that it’d be great to have a vocal-driven score,” West says. “It just seemed conceptually like a really weird and interesting idea to not just have the same old horror score that you hear over and over again.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bates, who had admired Wolfe’s music for years and had already worked with her once before, knew she’d be perfect. He came to her with the idea to use her voice to make “percussive sounds” throughout, including laughter, growling and even sexual noises — particularly apt given the movie follows a pornographic film crew in the ‘70s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quXqq2q0MmA\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She looked at me like, ‘What do you want me to do?’” Bates laughs as he recalls explaining his proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But West, aware of their unconventional request, says Wolfe quickly rose to the occasion, making a big difference in the finished film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s hugely important. Music, certainly in a horror movie, is something that’s going to curate the tone,” West says. “At least for me, it’s something I’m thinking about before I even make the movie.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13950877']Bates teases that he and Wolfe have continued this method in the score for \u003cem>MaXXXine\u003c/em>, the highly anticipated final film of the trilogy, which stars Elizabeth Debicki and singer Halsey alongside Goth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between working on the \u003cem>MaXXXine\u003c/em> score and gearing up for her album release and upcoming tour, Wolfe has been particularly intentional about taking time for self-reflection and being present amid a busy schedule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That has of course involved witchcraft, though, like her music, she resists attempts to put walls around what that means.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Witchcraft in itself isn’t a religion. It’s not like we all gather somewhere,” she says. “Just because someone practices witchcraft doesn’t mean that they’re going to resonate with everybody else who does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-medium wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-800x78.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Chelsea Wolfe’s new album, ‘She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She’ is released on Feb. 9, 2024 via Loma Vista Recordings.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"‘She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She’ is the seventh studio full-length by the Sacramento-raised artist. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1707421203,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":27,"wordCount":1068},"headData":{"title":"Interview: Chelsea Wolfe Talks Witchcraft and Her New Album | KQED","description":"‘She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She’ is the seventh studio full-length by the Sacramento-raised artist. ","ogTitle":"Chelsea Wolfe Says Witchcraft and Sobriety Informed Her Latest Album","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Chelsea Wolfe Says Witchcraft and Sobriety Informed Her Latest Album","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Interview: Chelsea Wolfe Talks Witchcraft and Her New Album %%page%% %%sep%% KQED"},"sticky":false,"nprByline":"Krysta Fauria, Associated Press","templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13951872/chelsea-wolfes-new-album-she-reaches-out-to-she-loma-vista","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Often in popular culture, witchcraft is associated with a kind of feminist reclamation of power and spite-fueled revenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And although Chelsea Wolfe’s new album is arguably her most spiritual yet, dripping with poetic lyricism about tarot, underworlds and bathing in blood, the process of making it has been marked by a time of healing, joy and relinquishing control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Over the years, as I’ve embraced a path of witchcraft and following the cycles of the seasons and the cycles of the moon, I put that into my writing process a lot, and I’ve started to share that more because this has been such a positive, wonderful thing in my life,” Wolfe explains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13951564","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Witchcraft’s influence has meant an increased attentiveness to letting each record “be what it wants to be,” the singer, songwriter and musician says — which can sometimes be overtly mystical, like pulling a tarot card for “clarity and guidance” on what she is about to write, or more ostensibly mundane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take, for example, her songwriting process for \u003cem>She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She\u003c/em>. Although Wolfe frequently brings nearly finished demos to the studio to be fine-tuned and recorded for an album, this time around, she decided to work with producer Dave Sitek, who heavily transformed her rock-sounding songs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This one felt like it wanted to lean more electronic, a little bit more of that trip-hop influence that I’ve dabbled with over the years,” she says of her embrace of the genre which blends hip-hop and electronica.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/L0o2GraeMlo'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/L0o2GraeMlo'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>And while Wolfe is pleased with where she allowed those songs to go, it was still difficult to let it happen after years of holding onto them during the pandemic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you do have a lot of time to sit with the demos, sometimes it can be hard to then give them over to someone and hear all the changes,” she says. “But something about this place in my life and kind of what this record is about, thematically, it just felt right.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Part of what informed this idea of letting go and shedding exoskeletons — “a spectral reminder of all that we’ve become,” she sings in one song — was beginning a journey of sobriety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_114628","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I got sober from alcohol in early 2021, and I had already started this record. It’s interesting to kind of hear the songs that I started before that and the way that they changed,” she recalls. “That created a lot of openness and clarity in my life and my creativity that I just was then naturally channeling into this music. It became a lot about rebirth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wolfe’s music is hard to categorize, but she is known for her tendency to blend folk music with heavier subgenres like gothic rock and doom metal. She’s aware of the specific taste required for people to enjoy it — “It’s not party music,” she laughs — but has never been afraid to stand her creative ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s been collaborations that I’ve been asked to do that I felt like they just weren’t right for me. And maybe it would have given me a lot of exposure or more payment down the line,” she says. “I try to live simply and not have to do things that I don’t feel like I’m aligned with just for money. I know that’s a privilege.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she has found resourceful ways, in addition to touring, to make a living with which she feels artistically comfortable, such as collaborating with composer Tyler Bates on the soundtrack for the 2022 slasher film, \u003cem>X\u003c/em>, which stars Mia Goth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Director Ti West remembers wanting to experiment with a more avant-garde sound and talking to Bates about how best to achieve it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I kind of pitched this idea to Tyler that it’d be great to have a vocal-driven score,” West says. “It just seemed conceptually like a really weird and interesting idea to not just have the same old horror score that you hear over and over again.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bates, who had admired Wolfe’s music for years and had already worked with her once before, knew she’d be perfect. He came to her with the idea to use her voice to make “percussive sounds” throughout, including laughter, growling and even sexual noises — particularly apt given the movie follows a pornographic film crew in the ‘70s.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/quXqq2q0MmA'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/quXqq2q0MmA'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>“She looked at me like, ‘What do you want me to do?’” Bates laughs as he recalls explaining his proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But West, aware of their unconventional request, says Wolfe quickly rose to the occasion, making a big difference in the finished film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s hugely important. Music, certainly in a horror movie, is something that’s going to curate the tone,” West says. “At least for me, it’s something I’m thinking about before I even make the movie.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13950877","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Bates teases that he and Wolfe have continued this method in the score for \u003cem>MaXXXine\u003c/em>, the highly anticipated final film of the trilogy, which stars Elizabeth Debicki and singer Halsey alongside Goth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between working on the \u003cem>MaXXXine\u003c/em> score and gearing up for her album release and upcoming tour, Wolfe has been particularly intentional about taking time for self-reflection and being present amid a busy schedule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That has of course involved witchcraft, though, like her music, she resists attempts to put walls around what that means.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Witchcraft in itself isn’t a religion. It’s not like we all gather somewhere,” she says. “Just because someone practices witchcraft doesn’t mean that they’re going to resonate with everybody else who does.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-medium wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-800x78.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Chelsea Wolfe’s new album, ‘She Reaches Out to She Reaches Out to She’ is released on Feb. 9, 2024 via Loma Vista Recordings.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13951872/chelsea-wolfes-new-album-she-reaches-out-to-she-loma-vista","authors":["byline_arts_13951872"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_69","arts_75"],"tags":["arts_1050","arts_2624","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13951887","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13950866":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13950866","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13950866","score":null,"sort":[1706646992000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"jay-caspian-kang-asian-food-san-jose-hella-hungry","title":"Jay Caspian Kang Loves Bay Area Food — But Isn’t Shy About Bashing It","publishDate":1706646992,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Jay Caspian Kang Loves Bay Area Food — But Isn’t Shy About Bashing It | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>¡Hella Hungry! is a series of interviews with Bay Area foodmakers exploring the region’s culinary innovations through the mouth of a first-generation local.\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://gangnamtofuusa.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gangnam Tofu\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a destination-worthy Korean restaurant in an otherwise unremarkable El Cerrito strip mall, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jay Caspian Kang\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> orders a round of shareable dishes — galbi, honey-cheese fried chicken and budae jjigae (a wartime-era stew of mixed meats and noodles) — for us to split. As the lunch crowd pours in behind him, Kang tells me why he likes Gangnam over most other Asian eateries in the area: “I just want to eat standard Korean food that’s prepared well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Though he surprisingly prefers his spicy food mild, the Korean-born \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://goodbye.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast host\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, novelist and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Yorker \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">staff writer serves plenty of hot takes on everything from the shortcomings of technology (he’s an aspiring luddite) to the most underrated rap albums of the past quarter century (he stands with Mos Def in the internet feud against Drake). And when it comes to the hypocrisies of Bay Area politics, he especially \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/london-breeds-cynical-swing-to-the-right\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">doesn’t hold back\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950802\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950802\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Best known for articles he’s written for national publications such as the New Yorker, Kang has lived in Berkeley since 2019. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having settled in Berkeley after years of living in New York City and Los Angeles, Kang has developed a genuine appreciation for the Bay Area’s microcultures. Despite growing up on the East Coast and often writing about topics of national interest, Kang has in many ways become a quintessential Northern Californian: In his free time, you might find him surfing or wandering the aisles at Berkeley Bowl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet, he’s also someone who brings a worldly outsider’s unflinching perspective to controversial Bay Area topics such as the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-does-californias-homeless-population-actually-look-like\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">housing crisis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/magazine/where-does-affirmative-action-leave-asian-americans.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">affirmative action\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He’ll even let you know that \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang/status/1740961971498074151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Asian food in Las Vegas is better than the Bay Area’s\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perhaps \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13950363/keith-lee-tiktok-oakland-sf-bay-area-struggles\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">our region needs that tough love\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> now more than ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While talking to the sports-loving dad and low-key hip-hop historian about the highs and lows of Bay Area living, I remembered why I love this quirky region so deeply, despite its complex truths. Here’s what everyone’s favorite \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tyler Hansborough evangelist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.houseofstrauss.com/p/hos-jay-caspian-kang\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reformed online troll\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has to say about the state of the Bay — and its food offerings — in these precarious times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">********\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Chazaro: You were born in Korea, grew up in North Carolina and have lived in a ton of places. How long have you been in the Bay Area?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went to college in New England, and then I went to New York for grad school. But after that, I moved out to California and lived here in San Francisco for six, seven years. I was working as a high school teacher. Then I moved to L.A., back to New York, and then right before the pandemic we moved back out here to Berkeley. It’s been four years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950796\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950796\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt='Hand pointing to the \"honey cheese chicken\" on Korean restaurant menu.' width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Perusing the menu at GangNam Tofu . \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You’ve written about \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/magazine/writing-the-wave.html\">\u003cb>your passion for surfing\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the Bay. What draws you to that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not a good surfer, but yeah, I spend most of my time thinking about surfing. For years, I just went to Ocean Beach all the time, and you get used to it and, you know, you learn how to avoid trouble. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I go once or twice a week. That’s the only way you can do it: You have to prioritize it. Or else, if you don’t, then you don’t ever go. If I get a Zoom call, I’ll just cancel that. You have to live with some of the consequences after, but surfing is very necessary for my mental well-being.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It sounds like you’ve reached some kind of Zen mindstate. Did you achieve that when you were living in Los Angeles?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t really like to drive. And I’ve never liked Hollywood culture. I just find that the people I vibe most with are generally up here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Who do you think is a good example of the Bay Area’s creativity and open-mindedness?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at MC Hammer. He grew up doing that boogaloo style of dancing in East Oakland. He downloaded that as a kid. He blew it up into worldwide fame in a modified kind of way. Now that he’s old, his presence on social media is just showing all these old videos of guys from his neighborhood dancing. I find it amazing that he’s willing to go back and show these kids from his block who were his influences, and he’s basically showing how that made him who he is. That’s community, music coming out of community. He’s interesting because he’s like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13909788/mc-hammer-oakland-redman-too-short-crips-louis-burrell-mc-serch-hit-e40\">most Oakland dude ever\u003c/a>, but he’s not always seen as being affiliated with that (laughs). \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950797\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950797\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kang and KQED reporter Alan Chazaro put in their order. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Bay is weird like that. There’s a lot of different characters here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is weird. It’s interesting how someone like E-40 has become this sort of mascot as a rapper. He’s the dude. He’s like an entire persona. And people love him because he goes to all the games. I’ve never seen Too $hort at a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Did you grow up listening to a lot of Bay Area rap out on the East Coast?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up listening to whatever you imagine a 44-year-old man would listen to (laughs). A Tribe Called Quest. Wu-Tang. Mobb Deep. Then you had the Bay Area, so there was like “Blowjob Betty” or whatever, and you would listen to it, and it was crazy because it was just so nasty. Luniz, Del [the Funky Homosapien]. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Del is the one I personally listened to the most. I still listen to him. The Deltron 3030 album is brilliant. The production on that album is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fucking\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> crazy. The whole concept is weird. [Bay Area producer] Dan the Automator had been messing with concept albums for a while. That was just a cool kind of rap with enough label support to make weird shit. That was before MF DOOM and all those dudes. It’s like Del imagining the future, and Del is awesome. He kills it. That album is low-key one of the 20 best rap albums ever. I hesitate to put it higher because is it as important as, say, KRS One? I don’t know. Listening to those KRS One albums can feel like you’re just doing your homework. I bet more people enjoyed Deltron 3030.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What’s more Bay Area than an Asian American producer teaming up with a nerdy Black dude from East Oakland to make a futuristic album about a fictional dystopian society?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. And these guys were getting deeply influenced by the shit that’s happening with \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13812554/how-daly-citys-filipino-mobile-dj-scene-changed-hip-hop-forever\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Filipino DJs in Daly City\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Every city has some version of that, but it’s so interesting in the Bay because it really is so multiracial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I wonder if the Bay Area still represents that as much as it once did. You commented on the whole \u003c/b>\u003cb>fiasco with TikTok food critic Keith Lee’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13950363/keith-lee-tiktok-oakland-sf-bay-area-struggles\">recent Bay Area visit\u003c/a>\u003c/b>\u003cb>. He said the Bay is “not a place for tourists” right now. What do you think about that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no question that the Bay Area is going through a difficult time right now. If Keith Lee went to the Tenderloin and parts of East Oakland, which it seems like he did — or even if he went to 24th and Mission, which is highly trafficked — people when they come to the Bay Area and see that, it’s shocking to them. You have to be real about it. You don’t see that in New York. You see it in L.A. but it’s mostly in the Skid Row area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay Area has had these issues for a long time, but it was more contained and it didn’t feel like it was as big of a problem. When I moved to San Francisco around 2002, I got off BART at 16th Street. I was like, \u003cem>Wow, this is kind of wild\u003c/em>. And now that has really expanded to a lot of places where a lot more people go. So in the Bay, you get these people coming for conferences or just visiting to see Fisherman’s Wharf, and chances are the hotel is going to be in Union Square or directly in the Tenderloin. So when you leave your hotel, you’re seeing really bad shit. That shocks outsiders and contributes to an unfair narrative. If you put all of the hotels in L.A. on Skid Row, everyone would be saying the same thing about L.A. But at the same time, I think it’s good to bring attention to this problem: We have completely out-of-control homelessness in one of the richest cities in America, and that paradox and contradiction is impossible to resolve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way out of it is going to be super messy and will create reactionary elements. People like [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Fransicko \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">author] Michael Shellenberger believe all these \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Michael-Shellenberger-s-narrative-of-California-17172493.php\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">drug addicts should just be put in jail.\u003c/span>\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://invisiblepeople.tv/san-francisco-mayor-london-breed-joins-calls-to-punish-homeless-people-overturn-martin-v-boise/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">London Breed sometimes feels that way, too\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. But I think overall, those people are underestimating that the San Francisco Bay Area is a very progressive place. They will never accept us locking up these people. And that’s a good thing. The idea that you’re going to lock up the poor and throw away the key, it’s just not going to happen. Right now we’re in a period of extremes: of extreme cynicism and despair. And for good reason, because it’s fucking bad, you know? But I still wouldn’t trade places with anyone to live somewhere else in this country. It’s a trade-off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950799\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950799\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gangnam Tofu’s version of budae jjigae is a soft tofu stew loaded with sausage and noodles. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Despite our struggles, there’s so much to discover here and so many pockets of rich culture. You actually \u003c/b>\u003cb>had a take\u003c/b>\u003cb> that most of the \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang/status/1740965943998927231\">Asian food in the Bay Area is bad\u003c/a>, outside of in San Jose. I’m not sure many outsiders, or even locals, would voice that.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So here’s the thing. This is just my theory. Immigrant food is only really good in a certain time period after the people who are making it have immigrated here. For example, new Chinese populations in the United States will have much better food in their restaurants, and in those areas where they are living, than older, established Chinese populations. And the reason for that is very simple. It’s that food on the mainland continues to evolve, right? But the immigrants who have been living here for decades don’t. They’re frozen in time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13904835,arts_13950363,arts_13938479']My parents left Korea in 1978, and they never go back except for a little visit throughout 25 years. And by 1999, their understanding of Korean cuisine is basically frozen in 1978, because every single other person who owns a Korean restaurant also came around that same time, because there was a big wave of immigration from ’75 to ’79. I know that in San Francisco you have a multi-generational embedded Chinese population. But at this point, like, what are we even eating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of Chinese restaurants [in San Francisco] feel like they’re a movie set or something. It’s very charming, but it’s very old school. In the Richmond, there are places you can find that are exceptions to that. But right now, the cradle for the best Chinese food is from Cupertino to Mountain View, all around Silicon Valley. And the reason for that is because there are a lot of new Chinese immigrants that are coming to work there. In addition to that, there’s this \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13904913/vietnamese-drinks-boba-che-guide-san-jose\">Vietnamese mall culture in San Jose\u003c/a>. It’s getting a little old-fashioned, but it’s still super vibrant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[pullquote size=\"large\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Jay Caspian Kang\"]‘Food on the mainland continues to evolve, right? But the immigrants who have been living here for decades don’t. They’re frozen in time.’[/pullquote]I just don’t find anything like that out here in the East Bay. We have taqueros in people’s backyards, and that’s very distinct and fully immigrant-driven, so that feels fresh in the cycle. But with Korean food, you have all these restaurants, but the issue is that they’ve all been here for so long that nothing has been updated. They’re basically selling food from the ’80s — but Korean food updates, even the standard dishes. When something comes straight from there and lands here, it feels exciting. That doesn’t happen as much up here as it does around San Jose. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13904835/san-jose-immigrant-food\">The restaurants down there are fire\u003c/a>. Unfortunately I can’t go to Cupertino for lunch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950795\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950795\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two men seated across from each other inside a Korean restaurant.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many Korean restaurants in the Bay Area are selling a version of Korean food that has been frozen in time since the 1980s, Kang says. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>So what are you working on next? What’s on your mind as a locally-based journalist with a national platform?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I write a lot about homelessness, so I’d like to continue to write and think about that. There’s tiny amounts of progress finally being made. It’s actually better than it was. For years here, we kind of felt like it could only get worse. But there are tiny indications things are getting a little bit better, that some of these interventions are working. People are just going to have to get used to the idea that the hotel down the street from their house where nobody ever stayed, that’s now a place for the people in the encampment that you didn’t like. They now live there. If you don’t like that, then I’m sorry. Obviously it’s going to take many, many years. And so following that is very interesting to me. They actually are reversing this thing that seems impossible to fix. I’m also going to write a lot about the upcoming election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You’ve had a decades-long career in this industry, which is currently struggling as \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973593/l-a-times-layoffs-decimate-journalists-of-color\">\u003cb>layoffs are decimating newsrooms across the country\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>. What keeps you going?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel the need to write a lot. I used to write very infrequently, and I found that I actually enjoyed writing much more. It’s a way to organize one’s life. Having something to put out and putting it out feels good. Sometimes it’s not great, because you might only have a week to do it. But I’m learning to be fine with that and understanding the job is not to make everything perfect. I’ve really embraced that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"wDYxhc\" lang=\"en-US\" data-attrid=\"kc:/local:lu attribute list\" data-md=\"205\" data-hveid=\"CB4QAA\" data-ved=\"2ahUKEwiGt_a2mIOEAxV_LUQIHYdKB3wQ1rkBegQIHhAA\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"TLYLSe MaBy9\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"CJQ04\">\u003cem>Gangnam Tofu Korean Cuisine (11740 San Pablo Ave. Suite C, El Cerrito) is open Mon.–Fri. from 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. and 5 to 9 p.m.; Sat. and Sun. from 11:30 a.m. to 9 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The Berkeley writer riffs on Bay Area rap, the housing crisis and why San Jose has the region's best Asian food.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1706659950,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":39,"wordCount":2696},"headData":{"title":"Jay Caspian Kang Shares His Hot Takes on Bay Area Food | KQED","description":"The Berkeley writer riffs on Bay Area rap, the housing crisis and why San Jose has the region's best Asian food.","ogTitle":"Jay Caspian Kang Loves Bay Area Food — But Isn’t Shy About Bashing It","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Jay Caspian Kang Loves Bay Area Food — But Isn’t Shy About Bashing It","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Jay Caspian Kang Shares His Hot Takes on Bay Area Food%%page%% %%sep%% KQED"},"source":"¡Hella Hungry!","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/hella-hungry","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13950866/jay-caspian-kang-asian-food-san-jose-hella-hungry","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>¡Hella Hungry! is a series of interviews with Bay Area foodmakers exploring the region’s culinary innovations through the mouth of a first-generation local.\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Inside \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://gangnamtofuusa.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gangnam Tofu\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a destination-worthy Korean restaurant in an otherwise unremarkable El Cerrito strip mall, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jay Caspian Kang\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> orders a round of shareable dishes — galbi, honey-cheese fried chicken and budae jjigae (a wartime-era stew of mixed meats and noodles) — for us to split. As the lunch crowd pours in behind him, Kang tells me why he likes Gangnam over most other Asian eateries in the area: “I just want to eat standard Korean food that’s prepared well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Though he surprisingly prefers his spicy food mild, the Korean-born \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://goodbye.substack.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">podcast host\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, novelist and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Yorker \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">staff writer serves plenty of hot takes on everything from the shortcomings of technology (he’s an aspiring luddite) to the most underrated rap albums of the past quarter century (he stands with Mos Def in the internet feud against Drake). And when it comes to the hypocrisies of Bay Area politics, he especially \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/london-breeds-cynical-swing-to-the-right\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">doesn’t hold back\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950802\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950802\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-09-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Best known for articles he’s written for national publications such as the New Yorker, Kang has lived in Berkeley since 2019. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Having settled in Berkeley after years of living in New York City and Los Angeles, Kang has developed a genuine appreciation for the Bay Area’s microcultures. Despite growing up on the East Coast and often writing about topics of national interest, Kang has in many ways become a quintessential Northern Californian: In his free time, you might find him surfing or wandering the aisles at Berkeley Bowl.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And yet, he’s also someone who brings a worldly outsider’s unflinching perspective to controversial Bay Area topics such as the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-does-californias-homeless-population-actually-look-like\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">housing crisis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/magazine/where-does-affirmative-action-leave-asian-americans.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">affirmative action\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He’ll even let you know that \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang/status/1740961971498074151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the Asian food in Las Vegas is better than the Bay Area’s\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Perhaps \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13950363/keith-lee-tiktok-oakland-sf-bay-area-struggles\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">our region needs that tough love\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> now more than ever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While talking to the sports-loving dad and low-key hip-hop historian about the highs and lows of Bay Area living, I remembered why I love this quirky region so deeply, despite its complex truths. Here’s what everyone’s favorite \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tyler Hansborough evangelist\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.houseofstrauss.com/p/hos-jay-caspian-kang\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">reformed online troll\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has to say about the state of the Bay — and its food offerings — in these precarious times.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">********\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alan Chazaro: You were born in Korea, grew up in North Carolina and have lived in a ton of places. How long have you been in the Bay Area?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I went to college in New England, and then I went to New York for grad school. But after that, I moved out to California and lived here in San Francisco for six, seven years. I was working as a high school teacher. Then I moved to L.A., back to New York, and then right before the pandemic we moved back out here to Berkeley. It’s been four years now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950796\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950796\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt='Hand pointing to the \"honey cheese chicken\" on Korean restaurant menu.' width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-03-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Perusing the menu at GangNam Tofu . \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You’ve written about \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/22/magazine/writing-the-wave.html\">\u003cb>your passion for surfing\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> in the Bay. What draws you to that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not a good surfer, but yeah, I spend most of my time thinking about surfing. For years, I just went to Ocean Beach all the time, and you get used to it and, you know, you learn how to avoid trouble. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I go once or twice a week. That’s the only way you can do it: You have to prioritize it. Or else, if you don’t, then you don’t ever go. If I get a Zoom call, I’ll just cancel that. You have to live with some of the consequences after, but surfing is very necessary for my mental well-being.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It sounds like you’ve reached some kind of Zen mindstate. Did you achieve that when you were living in Los Angeles?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I don’t really like to drive. And I’ve never liked Hollywood culture. I just find that the people I vibe most with are generally up here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Who do you think is a good example of the Bay Area’s creativity and open-mindedness?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look at MC Hammer. He grew up doing that boogaloo style of dancing in East Oakland. He downloaded that as a kid. He blew it up into worldwide fame in a modified kind of way. Now that he’s old, his presence on social media is just showing all these old videos of guys from his neighborhood dancing. I find it amazing that he’s willing to go back and show these kids from his block who were his influences, and he’s basically showing how that made him who he is. That’s community, music coming out of community. He’s interesting because he’s like the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13909788/mc-hammer-oakland-redman-too-short-crips-louis-burrell-mc-serch-hit-e40\">most Oakland dude ever\u003c/a>, but he’s not always seen as being affiliated with that (laughs). \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950797\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950797\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-04-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kang and KQED reporter Alan Chazaro put in their order. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Bay is weird like that. There’s a lot of different characters here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is weird. It’s interesting how someone like E-40 has become this sort of mascot as a rapper. He’s the dude. He’s like an entire persona. And people love him because he goes to all the games. I’ve never seen Too $hort at a game. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Did you grow up listening to a lot of Bay Area rap out on the East Coast?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up listening to whatever you imagine a 44-year-old man would listen to (laughs). A Tribe Called Quest. Wu-Tang. Mobb Deep. Then you had the Bay Area, so there was like “Blowjob Betty” or whatever, and you would listen to it, and it was crazy because it was just so nasty. Luniz, Del [the Funky Homosapien]. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Del is the one I personally listened to the most. I still listen to him. The Deltron 3030 album is brilliant. The production on that album is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">fucking\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> crazy. The whole concept is weird. [Bay Area producer] Dan the Automator had been messing with concept albums for a while. That was just a cool kind of rap with enough label support to make weird shit. That was before MF DOOM and all those dudes. It’s like Del imagining the future, and Del is awesome. He kills it. That album is low-key one of the 20 best rap albums ever. I hesitate to put it higher because is it as important as, say, KRS One? I don’t know. Listening to those KRS One albums can feel like you’re just doing your homework. I bet more people enjoyed Deltron 3030.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What’s more Bay Area than an Asian American producer teaming up with a nerdy Black dude from East Oakland to make a futuristic album about a fictional dystopian society?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally. And these guys were getting deeply influenced by the shit that’s happening with \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13812554/how-daly-citys-filipino-mobile-dj-scene-changed-hip-hop-forever\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Filipino DJs in Daly City\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Every city has some version of that, but it’s so interesting in the Bay because it really is so multiracial. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I wonder if the Bay Area still represents that as much as it once did. You commented on the whole \u003c/b>\u003cb>fiasco with TikTok food critic Keith Lee’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13950363/keith-lee-tiktok-oakland-sf-bay-area-struggles\">recent Bay Area visit\u003c/a>\u003c/b>\u003cb>. He said the Bay is “not a place for tourists” right now. What do you think about that?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no question that the Bay Area is going through a difficult time right now. If Keith Lee went to the Tenderloin and parts of East Oakland, which it seems like he did — or even if he went to 24th and Mission, which is highly trafficked — people when they come to the Bay Area and see that, it’s shocking to them. You have to be real about it. You don’t see that in New York. You see it in L.A. but it’s mostly in the Skid Row area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Bay Area has had these issues for a long time, but it was more contained and it didn’t feel like it was as big of a problem. When I moved to San Francisco around 2002, I got off BART at 16th Street. I was like, \u003cem>Wow, this is kind of wild\u003c/em>. And now that has really expanded to a lot of places where a lot more people go. So in the Bay, you get these people coming for conferences or just visiting to see Fisherman’s Wharf, and chances are the hotel is going to be in Union Square or directly in the Tenderloin. So when you leave your hotel, you’re seeing really bad shit. That shocks outsiders and contributes to an unfair narrative. If you put all of the hotels in L.A. on Skid Row, everyone would be saying the same thing about L.A. But at the same time, I think it’s good to bring attention to this problem: We have completely out-of-control homelessness in one of the richest cities in America, and that paradox and contradiction is impossible to resolve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way out of it is going to be super messy and will create reactionary elements. People like [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Fransicko \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">author] Michael Shellenberger believe all these \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/Michael-Shellenberger-s-narrative-of-California-17172493.php\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">drug addicts should just be put in jail.\u003c/span>\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://invisiblepeople.tv/san-francisco-mayor-london-breed-joins-calls-to-punish-homeless-people-overturn-martin-v-boise/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">London Breed sometimes feels that way, too\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. But I think overall, those people are underestimating that the San Francisco Bay Area is a very progressive place. They will never accept us locking up these people. And that’s a good thing. The idea that you’re going to lock up the poor and throw away the key, it’s just not going to happen. Right now we’re in a period of extremes: of extreme cynicism and despair. And for good reason, because it’s fucking bad, you know? But I still wouldn’t trade places with anyone to live somewhere else in this country. It’s a trade-off.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950799\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950799\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gangnam Tofu’s version of budae jjigae is a soft tofu stew loaded with sausage and noodles. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Despite our struggles, there’s so much to discover here and so many pockets of rich culture. You actually \u003c/b>\u003cb>had a take\u003c/b>\u003cb> that most of the \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang/status/1740965943998927231\">Asian food in the Bay Area is bad\u003c/a>, outside of in San Jose. I’m not sure many outsiders, or even locals, would voice that.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So here’s the thing. This is just my theory. Immigrant food is only really good in a certain time period after the people who are making it have immigrated here. For example, new Chinese populations in the United States will have much better food in their restaurants, and in those areas where they are living, than older, established Chinese populations. And the reason for that is very simple. It’s that food on the mainland continues to evolve, right? But the immigrants who have been living here for decades don’t. They’re frozen in time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13904835,arts_13950363,arts_13938479","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>My parents left Korea in 1978, and they never go back except for a little visit throughout 25 years. And by 1999, their understanding of Korean cuisine is basically frozen in 1978, because every single other person who owns a Korean restaurant also came around that same time, because there was a big wave of immigration from ’75 to ’79. I know that in San Francisco you have a multi-generational embedded Chinese population. But at this point, like, what are we even eating? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of Chinese restaurants [in San Francisco] feel like they’re a movie set or something. It’s very charming, but it’s very old school. In the Richmond, there are places you can find that are exceptions to that. But right now, the cradle for the best Chinese food is from Cupertino to Mountain View, all around Silicon Valley. And the reason for that is because there are a lot of new Chinese immigrants that are coming to work there. In addition to that, there’s this \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13904913/vietnamese-drinks-boba-che-guide-san-jose\">Vietnamese mall culture in San Jose\u003c/a>. It’s getting a little old-fashioned, but it’s still super vibrant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘Food on the mainland continues to evolve, right? But the immigrants who have been living here for decades don’t. They’re frozen in time.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"large","align":"right","citation":"Jay Caspian Kang","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>I just don’t find anything like that out here in the East Bay. We have taqueros in people’s backyards, and that’s very distinct and fully immigrant-driven, so that feels fresh in the cycle. But with Korean food, you have all these restaurants, but the issue is that they’ve all been here for so long that nothing has been updated. They’re basically selling food from the ’80s — but Korean food updates, even the standard dishes. When something comes straight from there and lands here, it feels exciting. That doesn’t happen as much up here as it does around San Jose. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13904835/san-jose-immigrant-food\">The restaurants down there are fire\u003c/a>. Unfortunately I can’t go to Cupertino for lunch.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13950795\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13950795\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two men seated across from each other inside a Korean restaurant.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/240122-GAGNAM-TOFU-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many Korean restaurants in the Bay Area are selling a version of Korean food that has been frozen in time since the 1980s, Kang says. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>So what are you working on next? What’s on your mind as a locally-based journalist with a national platform?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I write a lot about homelessness, so I’d like to continue to write and think about that. There’s tiny amounts of progress finally being made. It’s actually better than it was. For years here, we kind of felt like it could only get worse. But there are tiny indications things are getting a little bit better, that some of these interventions are working. People are just going to have to get used to the idea that the hotel down the street from their house where nobody ever stayed, that’s now a place for the people in the encampment that you didn’t like. They now live there. If you don’t like that, then I’m sorry. Obviously it’s going to take many, many years. And so following that is very interesting to me. They actually are reversing this thing that seems impossible to fix. I’m also going to write a lot about the upcoming election. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>You’ve had a decades-long career in this industry, which is currently struggling as \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973593/l-a-times-layoffs-decimate-journalists-of-color\">\u003cb>layoffs are decimating newsrooms across the country\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>. What keeps you going?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel the need to write a lot. I used to write very infrequently, and I found that I actually enjoyed writing much more. It’s a way to organize one’s life. Having something to put out and putting it out feels good. Sometimes it’s not great, because you might only have a week to do it. But I’m learning to be fine with that and understanding the job is not to make everything perfect. I’ve really embraced that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"wDYxhc\" lang=\"en-US\" data-attrid=\"kc:/local:lu attribute list\" data-md=\"205\" data-hveid=\"CB4QAA\" data-ved=\"2ahUKEwiGt_a2mIOEAxV_LUQIHYdKB3wQ1rkBegQIHhAA\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"TLYLSe MaBy9\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"CJQ04\">\u003cem>Gangnam Tofu Korean Cuisine (11740 San Pablo Ave. Suite C, El Cerrito) is open Mon.–Fri. from 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. and 5 to 9 p.m.; Sat. and Sun. from 11:30 a.m. to 9 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13950866/jay-caspian-kang-asian-food-san-jose-hella-hungry","authors":["11748"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_5397","arts_1270","arts_19355","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_17573","arts_1050","arts_15803","arts_1146","arts_1084"],"featImg":"arts_13951125","label":"source_arts_13950866"},"arts_13951141":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13951141","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13951141","score":null,"sort":[1706559285000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"sohla-el-waylly-cookbook-start-here-bay-area-interview","title":"Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook","publishDate":1706559285,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>Sohla El-Waylly is a culinary maverick of our time: She knows how to deactivate the surface starches of rice for the perfect pilaf, she’s made crudités sexy by sheer force of will and she’s spoken truth to power with lasting impacts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly’s highly-anticipated first cookbook, \u003ci>Start Here: Instructions for Becoming a Better Cook\u003c/i>, is the this-is-just-the-beginning hat tip of a chef who’s quickly won over the hearts of home cooks all over the world — and who’s already planning her next book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2020, El-Waylly said she wasn’t being equitably compensated for her work as an assistant food editor at Bon Appetit, a public statement that became a part of a much larger racial reckoning in food media. It also launched \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNnBPM0Y9gU&ab_channel=Natalie\">fan-made supercuts\u003c/a> of every time El-Waylly was called over by white colleagues to temper chocolate or give her expert advice on using masa harina, all uncompensated. It’s the classic story of an undervalued woman of color shamelessly confused with the other South Asian woman in the office by her own boss — but onstage at the 92nd Street Y \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sj7L30851Q&ab_channel=LisaPhamFlowers\">for the whole internet to see\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly launched herself out of Bon Appetit and into everywhere else: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i7fVY596mY&t=152s\">Food 52\u003c/a>, the History Channel, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNex3XsgFc&t=73s&ab_channel=NYTCooking\">New York Times Cooking channel\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXnlVlkkkxM&ab_channel=BabishCulinaryUniverse\">Babish Culinary Universe\u003c/a> and an HBO series that she co-hosted with actor Dan Levy. Her obvious culinary mastery that doesn’t stop at how to cook something but why you cook it that way — on a chemical level — coupled with her punchy witticisms and flaky salt-of-the-earth sincerity has earned her prime time in the pantheon of unmistakably cool internet personalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always struggled to learn the way I was \u003ci>supposed\u003c/i> to learn, whether in the high school geography class I had to repeat or in a restaurant kitchen following a chef’s blunt commands,” she writes in the book’s introduction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What emerges from El-Waylly’s candid trove of fumbles and failures is a person who really knows what she’s talking about — who can tell you exactly where you went wrong because she’s been there herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of her San Francisco book tour appearances on January 29 and 30, I talked to El-Waylly about how to host a dinner party that will cure winter blues and what she ate the last time she visited the Bay, as a depressed undergrad over 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OLIVIA CRUZ MAYEDA:\u003c/b> Your new cookbook weaves in guidance and anecdotes that feel resonant in the kitchen and outside it, too. What do you hope people take with them from \u003ci>Start Here\u003c/i> as they move through the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SOHLA EL-WAYLLY: \u003c/b>I think the biggest message is that you’re going to mess up, and it’s going to be okay — that’s the main thing. I think that a lot of times people don’t even try stuff because they’re afraid of failing or just not being good at it. But I think it’s important to remember that everyone’s terrible at everything in the beginning, and you just have to push through that phase of maybe making a lot of bad food, and it will eventually get good. I think that really applies to everything in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae/video/7283990481220963626\" data-video-id=\"7283990481220963626\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@sohlae\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@sohlae\u003c/a> Here’s another peek from my cookbook, START HERE! (Have you preordered yet!?) In it, I teach you techniques, so eventually you won’t need recipes any more! Like this method for the best crispy, juicy, seared & braised chicken thighs. Make it like me with salsa verde and zucchini, or make it your own with cauliflower & curry, carrots & bone broth, or however the hell you want! Photos @Laura hi \u003ca title=\"♬ Sweet Dreams - Trinix\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/Sweet-Dreams-6795037315535210498?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ Sweet Dreams – Trinix\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>[tiktok]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb> called your cookbook “the new \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joy of Cooking\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>.” What cookbooks or food personalities most influenced you when you were starting out?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every day after school, I’d watch Jacques Torres. He had this show on PBS called “Desert Circus.” It had a really fun intro, and he’d roll around on roller skates. He did a chocolate sculpture once, and he had all these molds. And then he was like, “Anything can be a mold.” And he grabbed that air conditioner filter and molded chocolate on that, so then I went and I grabbed the filter out of the air conditioner! A lot of people can be a little rigid and, especially with pastry, be like, “You have to get this piping tip,” you know, “and you need this cake pan.” But he showed how you can make things work with what you have. And I feel like that really inspired me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What are you looking forward to during your visit to the Bay Area? Any foods in particular?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, I haven’t been in a really long time, but I went to school at UC Irvine. And I was really depressed. So the thing to do was to just drive to San Francisco all the way up [the Pacific Coast Highway]. And then get clam chowder at, like, five in the morning. I want to go to that pier that I went to and try to get some clam chowder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I first encountered your work when you were still working at Bon Appetit, where you were part of a racial reckoning at the publication but also in food media at large. Do you feel like any meaningful change has happened since then?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It does feel like there’s more diverse voices that are out there now. But I think that the biggest thing — and I don’t even think this has anything to do with anything I did or anything that happened — is just that people have their own platforms now. With social media, the people are picking who gets to be uplifted. I really like that there’s a lot of cool independent creators who I don’t think would have had a huge voice with traditional media. One of my favorite people is — Black Forager is her handle — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@alexisnikole?lang=en\">Alexis Nicole\u003c/a>. I love her. I learn so much from her videos. And she’s someone that did it completely on her own, and the people picked her. I just love that there’s more and more voices like that because we don’t need the traditional media anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>I\u003c/i> only exist because of the people who support me. I know that. And it’s really heartwarming that I have this support and this really loving community. And it’s also scary because I hope I’m giving them enough, you know what I mean? I totally exist because of individuals who believe in me, not because of one big, faceless corporation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/p/CzKW8Xov-Or/?igsh=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg%3D%3D\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>There’s so much heaviness in the world right now from the Congo to Sudan to Palestine. You signed onto — along with Berkeley chef Samin Nosrat — the \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hospitality-for-humanity.com/\">\u003cb>Hospitality for Humanity\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> pledge, a coalition of food and beverage workers calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, co-organized by another Bay Area chef, Reem Assil. How do you hope food and chefs can play a role in social justice and political organizing?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s tough. I feel like a lot of what happens is people just repost things, which I also was doing for a while, but I stopped because I saw a lot of prominent people who posted misinformation by accident with the best intentions because we’re not journalists, we’re not politicians. It’s easy to not know exactly what’s a real post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think the better way is just to focus on bringing awareness with what we do best, which is food. And I think it’s really important, especially with what’s happening in Palestine, to humanize the people there by just sharing more of their culture. I like talking about the food and celebrating the positive things that are happening over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love the deep dives into food history and food science that feel like throughlines in your work. Is there anything you’ve been nerding out about recently?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13921460,arts_13919177,arts_13926618']\u003c/span>Well, I’m currently working on my next book. The first one, I knew exactly what I wanted the book to accomplish. So for the next book, I don’t really have a plan, and I’m just letting myself learn about things that are interesting to me, and I’m just cooking stuff that I’m into. So I’ve just really been into princess cake lately. I’ve always seen them, but the ones from the grocery store are usually not very good, if we’re being totally honest. That marzipan is a little stale. But making a fresh one kind of blew me away with how delicious it is. So now I just want to learn more about princess cake and marzipan. I want to be someone where anytime you come over to my house — even if it’s a Tuesday — I made you a princess cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I’m having a small dinner party tomorrow with a few friends. What’s a menu from recipes in your book that you’d recommend for a vibey but not super high-maintenance dinner to cure our winter blues?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think for appetizers, there’s a shrimp cocktail in the book that’s really fun, and broiled oysters. But most of the time when we have people over, I can’t wrap my head around all that. So I’ll make a quick crudités plate. I love having some crunchy veg before a meal because it’s kind of like palate cleanser vibes. Try radishes and some Asian pear. There’s a ranch fun dip recipe in the book using pistachios — that’s fantastic. So put all the veggies on ice and get a nice glass bowl for the fun dip. People don’t give crudités respect, but you can make it really sexy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the main, maybe make those braised short ribs. You can make them the same day, but they are a lot better if you dry-brine them tonight. And then I really like to serve that with steamed vegetables, like some really nice broccolini and carrots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then dessert: I think you should go for the chocolate pudding pie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>El-Waylly will be signing copies of \u003c/i>Start Here\u003ci> at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/products/sohla-el-waylly-book-signing-start-here-instructions-for-becoming-a-better-cook\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St., San Francisco) at 4 p.m. on January 30, following her \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jccsf.org/event/sohla-el-waylly-start-here/\">\u003ci>sold-out book event\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> at the Jewish Community Center of San Francisco on January 29.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The culinary maverick reflects on transformations in food media, Palestine and her next cookbook. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1706559431,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":31,"wordCount":1892},"headData":{"title":"Sohla El-Waylly Cements Her Starring Role With a Thrilling Debut Cookbook | KQED","description":"The culinary maverick reflects on transformations in food media, Palestine and her next cookbook. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":""},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/food","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13951141/sohla-el-waylly-cookbook-start-here-bay-area-interview","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Sohla El-Waylly is a culinary maverick of our time: She knows how to deactivate the surface starches of rice for the perfect pilaf, she’s made crudités sexy by sheer force of will and she’s spoken truth to power with lasting impacts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly’s highly-anticipated first cookbook, \u003ci>Start Here: Instructions for Becoming a Better Cook\u003c/i>, is the this-is-just-the-beginning hat tip of a chef who’s quickly won over the hearts of home cooks all over the world — and who’s already planning her next book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2020, El-Waylly said she wasn’t being equitably compensated for her work as an assistant food editor at Bon Appetit, a public statement that became a part of a much larger racial reckoning in food media. It also launched \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNnBPM0Y9gU&ab_channel=Natalie\">fan-made supercuts\u003c/a> of every time El-Waylly was called over by white colleagues to temper chocolate or give her expert advice on using masa harina, all uncompensated. It’s the classic story of an undervalued woman of color shamelessly confused with the other South Asian woman in the office by her own boss — but onstage at the 92nd Street Y \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sj7L30851Q&ab_channel=LisaPhamFlowers\">for the whole internet to see\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>El-Waylly launched herself out of Bon Appetit and into everywhere else: \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i7fVY596mY&t=152s\">Food 52\u003c/a>, the History Channel, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNex3XsgFc&t=73s&ab_channel=NYTCooking\">New York Times Cooking channel\u003c/a>, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXnlVlkkkxM&ab_channel=BabishCulinaryUniverse\">Babish Culinary Universe\u003c/a> and an HBO series that she co-hosted with actor Dan Levy. Her obvious culinary mastery that doesn’t stop at how to cook something but why you cook it that way — on a chemical level — coupled with her punchy witticisms and flaky salt-of-the-earth sincerity has earned her prime time in the pantheon of unmistakably cool internet personalities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I always struggled to learn the way I was \u003ci>supposed\u003c/i> to learn, whether in the high school geography class I had to repeat or in a restaurant kitchen following a chef’s blunt commands,” she writes in the book’s introduction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What emerges from El-Waylly’s candid trove of fumbles and failures is a person who really knows what she’s talking about — who can tell you exactly where you went wrong because she’s been there herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ahead of her San Francisco book tour appearances on January 29 and 30, I talked to El-Waylly about how to host a dinner party that will cure winter blues and what she ate the last time she visited the Bay, as a depressed undergrad over 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This interview has been edited for length and clarity\u003c/i>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">********\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OLIVIA CRUZ MAYEDA:\u003c/b> Your new cookbook weaves in guidance and anecdotes that feel resonant in the kitchen and outside it, too. What do you hope people take with them from \u003ci>Start Here\u003c/i> as they move through the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SOHLA EL-WAYLLY: \u003c/b>I think the biggest message is that you’re going to mess up, and it’s going to be okay — that’s the main thing. I think that a lot of times people don’t even try stuff because they’re afraid of failing or just not being good at it. But I think it’s important to remember that everyone’s terrible at everything in the beginning, and you just have to push through that phase of maybe making a lot of bad food, and it will eventually get good. I think that really applies to everything in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae/video/7283990481220963626\" data-video-id=\"7283990481220963626\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@sohlae\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@sohlae?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@sohlae\u003c/a> Here’s another peek from my cookbook, START HERE! (Have you preordered yet!?) In it, I teach you techniques, so eventually you won’t need recipes any more! Like this method for the best crispy, juicy, seared & braised chicken thighs. Make it like me with salsa verde and zucchini, or make it your own with cauliflower & curry, carrots & bone broth, or however the hell you want! Photos @Laura hi \u003ca title=\"♬ Sweet Dreams - Trinix\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/Sweet-Dreams-6795037315535210498?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ Sweet Dreams – Trinix\u003c/a>\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"tiktok","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>New York Times\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb> called your cookbook “the new \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Joy of Cooking\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>.” What cookbooks or food personalities most influenced you when you were starting out?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every day after school, I’d watch Jacques Torres. He had this show on PBS called “Desert Circus.” It had a really fun intro, and he’d roll around on roller skates. He did a chocolate sculpture once, and he had all these molds. And then he was like, “Anything can be a mold.” And he grabbed that air conditioner filter and molded chocolate on that, so then I went and I grabbed the filter out of the air conditioner! A lot of people can be a little rigid and, especially with pastry, be like, “You have to get this piping tip,” you know, “and you need this cake pan.” But he showed how you can make things work with what you have. And I feel like that really inspired me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What are you looking forward to during your visit to the Bay Area? Any foods in particular?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Well, I haven’t been in a really long time, but I went to school at UC Irvine. And I was really depressed. So the thing to do was to just drive to San Francisco all the way up [the Pacific Coast Highway]. And then get clam chowder at, like, five in the morning. I want to go to that pier that I went to and try to get some clam chowder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I first encountered your work when you were still working at Bon Appetit, where you were part of a racial reckoning at the publication but also in food media at large. Do you feel like any meaningful change has happened since then?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It does feel like there’s more diverse voices that are out there now. But I think that the biggest thing — and I don’t even think this has anything to do with anything I did or anything that happened — is just that people have their own platforms now. With social media, the people are picking who gets to be uplifted. I really like that there’s a lot of cool independent creators who I don’t think would have had a huge voice with traditional media. One of my favorite people is — Black Forager is her handle — \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@alexisnikole?lang=en\">Alexis Nicole\u003c/a>. I love her. I learn so much from her videos. And she’s someone that did it completely on her own, and the people picked her. I just love that there’s more and more voices like that because we don’t need the traditional media anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>I\u003c/i> only exist because of the people who support me. I know that. And it’s really heartwarming that I have this support and this really loving community. And it’s also scary because I hope I’m giving them enough, you know what I mean? I totally exist because of individuals who believe in me, not because of one big, faceless corporation.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"instagramLink","attributes":{"named":{"instagramId":"CzKW8Xov-Or"},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>There’s so much heaviness in the world right now from the Congo to Sudan to Palestine. You signed onto — along with Berkeley chef Samin Nosrat — the \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.hospitality-for-humanity.com/\">\u003cb>Hospitality for Humanity\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb> pledge, a coalition of food and beverage workers calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, co-organized by another Bay Area chef, Reem Assil. How do you hope food and chefs can play a role in social justice and political organizing?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s tough. I feel like a lot of what happens is people just repost things, which I also was doing for a while, but I stopped because I saw a lot of prominent people who posted misinformation by accident with the best intentions because we’re not journalists, we’re not politicians. It’s easy to not know exactly what’s a real post.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I think the better way is just to focus on bringing awareness with what we do best, which is food. And I think it’s really important, especially with what’s happening in Palestine, to humanize the people there by just sharing more of their culture. I like talking about the food and celebrating the positive things that are happening over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I love the deep dives into food history and food science that feel like throughlines in your work. Is there anything you’ve been nerding out about recently?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13921460,arts_13919177,arts_13926618","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/span>Well, I’m currently working on my next book. The first one, I knew exactly what I wanted the book to accomplish. So for the next book, I don’t really have a plan, and I’m just letting myself learn about things that are interesting to me, and I’m just cooking stuff that I’m into. So I’ve just really been into princess cake lately. I’ve always seen them, but the ones from the grocery store are usually not very good, if we’re being totally honest. That marzipan is a little stale. But making a fresh one kind of blew me away with how delicious it is. So now I just want to learn more about princess cake and marzipan. I want to be someone where anytime you come over to my house — even if it’s a Tuesday — I made you a princess cake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>I’m having a small dinner party tomorrow with a few friends. What’s a menu from recipes in your book that you’d recommend for a vibey but not super high-maintenance dinner to cure our winter blues?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think for appetizers, there’s a shrimp cocktail in the book that’s really fun, and broiled oysters. But most of the time when we have people over, I can’t wrap my head around all that. So I’ll make a quick crudités plate. I love having some crunchy veg before a meal because it’s kind of like palate cleanser vibes. Try radishes and some Asian pear. There’s a ranch fun dip recipe in the book using pistachios — that’s fantastic. So put all the veggies on ice and get a nice glass bowl for the fun dip. People don’t give crudités respect, but you can make it really sexy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the main, maybe make those braised short ribs. You can make them the same day, but they are a lot better if you dry-brine them tonight. And then I really like to serve that with steamed vegetables, like some really nice broccolini and carrots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then dessert: I think you should go for the chocolate pudding pie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>El-Waylly will be signing copies of \u003c/i>Start Here\u003ci> at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/products/sohla-el-waylly-book-signing-start-here-instructions-for-becoming-a-better-cook\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St., San Francisco) at 4 p.m. on January 30, following her \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.jccsf.org/event/sohla-el-waylly-start-here/\">\u003ci>sold-out book event\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> at the Jewish Community Center of San Francisco on January 29.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13951141/sohla-el-waylly-cookbook-start-here-bay-area-interview","authors":["11872"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_16106","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_1050","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13951147","label":"source_arts_13951141"},"arts_13937806":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13937806","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13937806","score":null,"sort":[1699492681000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","title":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","publishDate":1699492681,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>For most of my adult life, I didn’t really know how to cook Chinese food. Once in a while, I’d attempt some big song and dance for a dinner party — scratch-made dumplings, say, or crispy roast pork belly. But the kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924997/the-woks-of-life-chinese-american-cookbook-berkeley-san-francisco-omnivore-books\">homey, everyday dishes I grew up on\u003c/a> as a first-generation immigrant kid? Those remained a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After I had children of my own, that ignorance started to feel like a personal failing: Americanized as my girls were certain to be, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/the-best-congee/\">I couldn’t stand the idea\u003c/a> that they would grow up not knowing how to eat a proper family-style Chinese meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, I set about trying to learn. This was eight or nine years ago, when reliable English-language recipes for home-style Chinese dishes were still relatively hard to find. When I snagged a copy of Fuchsia Dunlop’s \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393089042\">\u003ci>Every Grain of Rice\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, it felt like I could finally unlock the puzzle box I’d been worrying over for years. Here, at last, was an English-language cookbook packed with straightforward recipes for the kind of simple Chinese dishes that I’d grown up on: pressed tofu stir-fried with green peppers, clams in black bean sauce, napa cabbage with dried shrimp. By the time I finished cooking my way through the book, I was well on my way to becoming the kind of competent Chinese home cook who could whip up three quick stir-fries in the time it takes a pot of rice to finish steaming. All thanks to the clear instruction of a mild-mannered white woman from the U.K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop, of course, is a legend in the world of Chinese cookery. In the ’90s, she became the first Westerner to train at the prestigious Sichuan Higher Institute of Cuisine in Chengdu, China, and she has made a career out of translating China’s wildly diverse, and often wildly misunderstood, cuisines for a non-Chinese audience. She’s done it, too, with a humility and earnest curiosity that sets her apart from many of her \u003ca href=\"https://www.ocweekly.com/the-problem-isnt-rick-bayless-cooking-mexican-food-its-that-hes-a-thin-skinned-diva-7075113-2/\">“white expert” counterparts\u003c/a> in other cuisines: No one is quicker than Dunlop to deflect praise back to the Chinese chefs who have befriended her and taught her their secrets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13937825\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The book jacket for Fuchsia Dunlop's 'Invitation to a Banquet' depicts a colorful Chinese ceramic bowl against a light blue background.\" width=\"1695\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg 1695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-800x1208.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1020x1540.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-768x1160.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1017x1536.jpg 1017w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1356x2048.jpg 1356w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1695px) 100vw, 1695px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop’s new book, \u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>, isn’t a cookbook at all. Instead, it’s a meandering, often philosophical exploration of what Chinese food culture actually \u003ci>is —\u003c/i> and what it’s becoming — told through the story of 30 specific dishes. In one chapter, about a soup of wild catfish cheeks, she writes about the dozens of different food textures that the Chinese both admire and have highly specific words for. In another, she writes about a dish made by braising the cottony, seemingly inedible pith of a pomelo until it becomes ethereally delicious — a creation so ingenious that it flips the famous notion that Chinese people are willing to treat \u003ci>anything\u003c/i> vaguely edible as an ingredient entirely on its head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No other cuisine,” Dunlop writes of Chinese food, “has had such extraordinary influence or been so much loved, adopted and localized in so many countries.” At the same time, few other cuisines have been as shockingly misunderstood, especially in the West\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of the book’s U.S. release — and ahead of her San Francisco book tour events on Nov. 13 and 14 — I spoke to Dunlop about new trends in American Chinese food, what Chinese people in China think of her books, and the uniquely British phenomenon of fish and chip shops that have been converted into Chinese restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luke Tsai: You’re probably best known for your cookbooks, but this new book, \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>, very much is not that — it’s more about the history and cultural context behind Chinese food. What inspired this project?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fuchsia Dunlop:\u003c/b> Well, I’ve been eating and thinking about Chinese food for about 30 years now, and there’s always been more that I wanted to say about it than you can reasonably do in the headnotes or introduction of a cookbook. The thing that was preoccupying me more and more is this weird injustice in the way that Chinese food is viewed internationally, which is that it’s incredibly popular globally, and it has been, in many places, for 100 years. But at the same time, people don’t really give it credit for being the sophisticated, extraordinarily diverse and wide-ranging cuisine that it is. Chinese food has been stuck in the kind of easy neighborhood or takeout brackets. And few people in the West have the chance to try really high-level Chinese food — these technically advanced, complicated dishes that are not recognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of the stereotypes that I really wanted to look at in the book is the old thing about the Chinese eating everything, which has always been seen in a really negative light in the West — this idea that it’s a poor country that’s a bit desperate, so they’ll eat anything. It’s true that the Chinese eat an extraordinary range of ingredients, and are much more adventurous than your typical Westerner. But I find this inspirational and joyful. And also at a time when we all have to think more creatively about how we eat because of environmental reasons, I think there’s so much to learn from this radically creative Chinese approach to making delicacies out of everything and not wasting anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937828\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937828\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg\" alt=\"A cook in a striped apron poses for the camera while holding a plate of Chinese food.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1020x1276.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-768x960.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1638x2048.jpg 1638w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dunlop poses for a photo in her London kitchen. \u003ccite>(Yuki Sugiura)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One of the parts of the book I found really interesting were the differences between British Chinese food and American Chinese food — the fact that Chinese food didn’t really take off in the U.K. until after the 1950s, for instance. What would you say are the main differences today?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have some parallels like chow mein and chop suey. In the U.K., we have sweet-and-sour pork balls with red sauce and also chips in curry sauce because that was another thing — that Chinese restaurants often took over fish and chip shops. We don’t have General Tso’s chicken, but we do have crispy duck with pancakes everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In America now, you have whole suburbs with enormous populations of Chinese from all over China. In the U.K., we don’t have anywhere like San Gabriel Valley or New York Chinatown. The amount of produce and the scale is much bigger than ours, and you’ve got a greater diversity of regional restaurants. We have a lot of Sichuan and a bit of Hunan in the U.K., but you’ve got so many Jiangnan or Shanghainese restaurants, which we don’t really have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’ve just got bigger centers of Chinese people in the U.S., and having more native Chinese people in an immigrant population makes the food much more “authentic,” in the sense that it’s closer to what people are actually eating in China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you think of the Bay Area’s Chinese food scene, especially in terms of some of the new movements we’re seeing in more “modern” second- or third-generation Chinese American cuisine — the food being put out by chefs like Brandon Jew (of \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.misterjius.com/\">\u003cb>Mister Jiu’s\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>), who is hosting \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/event/445082/invitation-to-a-banquet-cookbook-release-party-with-fuchsia-dunlop\">one of your San Francisco book events\u003c/a>?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not just in the Bay Area, but in America generally, I think it’s really interesting that there’s a whole lot of second- and third generation Chinese people who are doing interesting things that involve mixing up different cultural influences and working with their heritage but not being totally bound by it, which is really fun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another thing that I tried to bring out in the book is that Chinese food is so diverse and dynamic. In China itself, the food has always been responding to new cultures and new influences. The best example is Sichuanese food itself: They’ve only had chilies for a couple hundred years. They combined the chili with the ancient Chinese spice, the Sichuan pepper, and they created \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/magazine/mala-sicuhuan-peppercorn-recipe.html\">mala\u003c/a>. And now you can’t really imagine Sichuan food without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been traveling around for three decades now. Every time I go to China there’s some new craze, some new ingredient. Most of us have an affection and a reverence for tradition. But I think that can coexist with being creative — with breaking the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937831\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1803px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937831\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The Chinese-language book jacket for the book 'Shark's Fin and Sichuan Pepper' depicts a woman bending down to talk to a Chinese woman seated in front of several bowls of soup.\" width=\"1803\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg 1803w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-800x1136.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1020x1448.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-160x227.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-768x1090.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1082x1536.jpg 1082w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1442x2048.jpg 1442w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1803px) 100vw, 1803px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The book jacket for the Chinese edition of Dunlop’s 2008 food memoir, ‘Shark’s Fin and Sichuan Pepper.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It seems like you’re very conscious of your responsibility as the person who is introducing many people — even people of Chinese descent — to Chinese cooking. Do you think of your role as being primarily one of translating Chinese food culture to foreigners? Or have Chinese readers also become a part of your audience?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[aside postID='arts_13924997,arts_13927103,arts_13906189']\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>When I started out, what I thought I was doing was writing about Chinese food for people who were not Chinese and didn’t grow up with it. That was the whole motivation, really. And so it’s been really surprising to me that actually the people who appreciate it the most tend to be people like you — who know Chinese food and love it, but don’t necessarily speak the language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, four of my books have been published in China in Chinese — this one is the first book I’ve written that I knew would have a Chinese edition. So I suppose I’m not writing for only one audience anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I am an outsider. I didn’t grow up with this, and I’m observing Chinese food from that outside viewpoint. On the other hand, I’m really trying to understand how food is eaten and understood in China itself — and to be fair and balanced about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe that’s why Chinese people like it too. A lot of Chinese readers of the books tell me they find it really interesting. Somebody coming from outside notices things that you don’t really notice as the daily background of your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>On Monday, Nov. 13, Dunlop will appear in San Francisco for a book signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/CzAPdhzCnZ3/?img_index=1\">\u003ci>China Live\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (644 Broadway) from 2–4 p.m., and a book talk and signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/collections/events/products/pre-order-chinese-fuchsia-dunlop-invitation-to-a-banquet-the-story-of-chinese-food-expected-october-10\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St.) at 6:30 p.m.. On Tuesday, Nov. 14, she’ll appear at a ticketed release party at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/\">\u003ci>Moongate Lounge\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (28 Waverly Pl.) from 6–9 p.m. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Her new book, ‘Invitation to a Banquet,’ goes beyond recipes to grapple with the very essence of the cuisine.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705003118,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":29,"wordCount":1858},"headData":{"title":"Fuchsia Dunlop's New Book Tells the Story Chinese Food | KQED","description":"Her new book, ‘Invitation to a Banquet,’ goes beyond recipes to grapple with the very essence of the cuisine.","ogTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop Taught Me How to Cook Chinese Food","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Fuchsia Dunlop's New Book Tells the Story Chinese Food %%page%% %%sep%% KQED"},"source":"Food","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/food","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13937806/fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>For most of my adult life, I didn’t really know how to cook Chinese food. Once in a while, I’d attempt some big song and dance for a dinner party — scratch-made dumplings, say, or crispy roast pork belly. But the kind of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13924997/the-woks-of-life-chinese-american-cookbook-berkeley-san-francisco-omnivore-books\">homey, everyday dishes I grew up on\u003c/a> as a first-generation immigrant kid? Those remained a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After I had children of my own, that ignorance started to feel like a personal failing: Americanized as my girls were certain to be, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/the-best-congee/\">I couldn’t stand the idea\u003c/a> that they would grow up not knowing how to eat a proper family-style Chinese meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, I set about trying to learn. This was eight or nine years ago, when reliable English-language recipes for home-style Chinese dishes were still relatively hard to find. When I snagged a copy of Fuchsia Dunlop’s \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393089042\">\u003ci>Every Grain of Rice\u003c/i>\u003c/a>, it felt like I could finally unlock the puzzle box I’d been worrying over for years. Here, at last, was an English-language cookbook packed with straightforward recipes for the kind of simple Chinese dishes that I’d grown up on: pressed tofu stir-fried with green peppers, clams in black bean sauce, napa cabbage with dried shrimp. By the time I finished cooking my way through the book, I was well on my way to becoming the kind of competent Chinese home cook who could whip up three quick stir-fries in the time it takes a pot of rice to finish steaming. All thanks to the clear instruction of a mild-mannered white woman from the U.K.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop, of course, is a legend in the world of Chinese cookery. In the ’90s, she became the first Westerner to train at the prestigious Sichuan Higher Institute of Cuisine in Chengdu, China, and she has made a career out of translating China’s wildly diverse, and often wildly misunderstood, cuisines for a non-Chinese audience. She’s done it, too, with a humility and earnest curiosity that sets her apart from many of her \u003ca href=\"https://www.ocweekly.com/the-problem-isnt-rick-bayless-cooking-mexican-food-its-that-hes-a-thin-skinned-diva-7075113-2/\">“white expert” counterparts\u003c/a> in other cuisines: No one is quicker than Dunlop to deflect praise back to the Chinese chefs who have befriended her and taught her their secrets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-13937825\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The book jacket for Fuchsia Dunlop's 'Invitation to a Banquet' depicts a colorful Chinese ceramic bowl against a light blue background.\" width=\"1695\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-scaled.jpg 1695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-800x1208.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1020x1540.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-768x1160.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1017x1536.jpg 1017w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/jacket-1356x2048.jpg 1356w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1695px) 100vw, 1695px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dunlop’s new book, \u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>, isn’t a cookbook at all. Instead, it’s a meandering, often philosophical exploration of what Chinese food culture actually \u003ci>is —\u003c/i> and what it’s becoming — told through the story of 30 specific dishes. In one chapter, about a soup of wild catfish cheeks, she writes about the dozens of different food textures that the Chinese both admire and have highly specific words for. In another, she writes about a dish made by braising the cottony, seemingly inedible pith of a pomelo until it becomes ethereally delicious — a creation so ingenious that it flips the famous notion that Chinese people are willing to treat \u003ci>anything\u003c/i> vaguely edible as an ingredient entirely on its head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“No other cuisine,” Dunlop writes of Chinese food, “has had such extraordinary influence or been so much loved, adopted and localized in so many countries.” At the same time, few other cuisines have been as shockingly misunderstood, especially in the West\u003ci>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the eve of the book’s U.S. release — and ahead of her San Francisco book tour events on Nov. 13 and 14 — I spoke to Dunlop about new trends in American Chinese food, what Chinese people in China think of her books, and the uniquely British phenomenon of fish and chip shops that have been converted into Chinese restaurants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Luke Tsai: You’re probably best known for your cookbooks, but this new book, \u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>Invitation to a Banquet\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>, very much is not that — it’s more about the history and cultural context behind Chinese food. What inspired this project?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Fuchsia Dunlop:\u003c/b> Well, I’ve been eating and thinking about Chinese food for about 30 years now, and there’s always been more that I wanted to say about it than you can reasonably do in the headnotes or introduction of a cookbook. The thing that was preoccupying me more and more is this weird injustice in the way that Chinese food is viewed internationally, which is that it’s incredibly popular globally, and it has been, in many places, for 100 years. But at the same time, people don’t really give it credit for being the sophisticated, extraordinarily diverse and wide-ranging cuisine that it is. Chinese food has been stuck in the kind of easy neighborhood or takeout brackets. And few people in the West have the chance to try really high-level Chinese food — these technically advanced, complicated dishes that are not recognized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another of the stereotypes that I really wanted to look at in the book is the old thing about the Chinese eating everything, which has always been seen in a really negative light in the West — this idea that it’s a poor country that’s a bit desperate, so they’ll eat anything. It’s true that the Chinese eat an extraordinary range of ingredients, and are much more adventurous than your typical Westerner. But I find this inspirational and joyful. And also at a time when we all have to think more creatively about how we eat because of environmental reasons, I think there’s so much to learn from this radically creative Chinese approach to making delicacies out of everything and not wasting anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937828\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937828\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg\" alt=\"A cook in a striped apron poses for the camera while holding a plate of Chinese food.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-800x1000.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1020x1276.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-160x200.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-768x960.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1228x1536.jpg 1228w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/Fuchsia-Dunlop_Yuki-Sugiura-1638x2048.jpg 1638w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dunlop poses for a photo in her London kitchen. \u003ccite>(Yuki Sugiura)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>One of the parts of the book I found really interesting were the differences between British Chinese food and American Chinese food — the fact that Chinese food didn’t really take off in the U.K. until after the 1950s, for instance. What would you say are the main differences today?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have some parallels like chow mein and chop suey. In the U.K., we have sweet-and-sour pork balls with red sauce and also chips in curry sauce because that was another thing — that Chinese restaurants often took over fish and chip shops. We don’t have General Tso’s chicken, but we do have crispy duck with pancakes everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In America now, you have whole suburbs with enormous populations of Chinese from all over China. In the U.K., we don’t have anywhere like San Gabriel Valley or New York Chinatown. The amount of produce and the scale is much bigger than ours, and you’ve got a greater diversity of regional restaurants. We have a lot of Sichuan and a bit of Hunan in the U.K., but you’ve got so many Jiangnan or Shanghainese restaurants, which we don’t really have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’ve just got bigger centers of Chinese people in the U.S., and having more native Chinese people in an immigrant population makes the food much more “authentic,” in the sense that it’s closer to what people are actually eating in China.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>What do you think of the Bay Area’s Chinese food scene, especially in terms of some of the new movements we’re seeing in more “modern” second- or third-generation Chinese American cuisine — the food being put out by chefs like Brandon Jew (of \u003c/b>\u003ca href=\"https://www.misterjius.com/\">\u003cb>Mister Jiu’s\u003c/b>\u003c/a>\u003cb>), who is hosting \u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/event/445082/invitation-to-a-banquet-cookbook-release-party-with-fuchsia-dunlop\">one of your San Francisco book events\u003c/a>?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not just in the Bay Area, but in America generally, I think it’s really interesting that there’s a whole lot of second- and third generation Chinese people who are doing interesting things that involve mixing up different cultural influences and working with their heritage but not being totally bound by it, which is really fun.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another thing that I tried to bring out in the book is that Chinese food is so diverse and dynamic. In China itself, the food has always been responding to new cultures and new influences. The best example is Sichuanese food itself: They’ve only had chilies for a couple hundred years. They combined the chili with the ancient Chinese spice, the Sichuan pepper, and they created \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/magazine/mala-sicuhuan-peppercorn-recipe.html\">mala\u003c/a>. And now you can’t really imagine Sichuan food without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve been traveling around for three decades now. Every time I go to China there’s some new craze, some new ingredient. Most of us have an affection and a reverence for tradition. But I think that can coexist with being creative — with breaking the tradition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13937831\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1803px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-13937831\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"The Chinese-language book jacket for the book 'Shark's Fin and Sichuan Pepper' depicts a woman bending down to talk to a Chinese woman seated in front of several bowls of soup.\" width=\"1803\" height=\"2560\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-scaled.jpg 1803w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-800x1136.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1020x1448.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-160x227.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-768x1090.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1082x1536.jpg 1082w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/11/fuchsia-dunlop-chinese-edition-1442x2048.jpg 1442w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1803px) 100vw, 1803px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The book jacket for the Chinese edition of Dunlop’s 2008 food memoir, ‘Shark’s Fin and Sichuan Pepper.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>It seems like you’re very conscious of your responsibility as the person who is introducing many people — even people of Chinese descent — to Chinese cooking. Do you think of your role as being primarily one of translating Chinese food culture to foreigners? Or have Chinese readers also become a part of your audience?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cstrong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13924997,arts_13927103,arts_13906189","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/span>\u003c/strong>\u003c/b>When I started out, what I thought I was doing was writing about Chinese food for people who were not Chinese and didn’t grow up with it. That was the whole motivation, really. And so it’s been really surprising to me that actually the people who appreciate it the most tend to be people like you — who know Chinese food and love it, but don’t necessarily speak the language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, four of my books have been published in China in Chinese — this one is the first book I’ve written that I knew would have a Chinese edition. So I suppose I’m not writing for only one audience anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I am an outsider. I didn’t grow up with this, and I’m observing Chinese food from that outside viewpoint. On the other hand, I’m really trying to understand how food is eaten and understood in China itself — and to be fair and balanced about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maybe that’s why Chinese people like it too. A lot of Chinese readers of the books tell me they find it really interesting. Somebody coming from outside notices things that you don’t really notice as the daily background of your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>On Monday, Nov. 13, Dunlop will appear in San Francisco for a book signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/p/CzAPdhzCnZ3/?img_index=1\">\u003ci>China Live\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (644 Broadway) from 2–4 p.m., and a book talk and signing at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://omnivorebooks.myshopify.com/collections/events/products/pre-order-chinese-fuchsia-dunlop-invitation-to-a-banquet-the-story-of-chinese-food-expected-october-10\">\u003ci>Omnivore Books\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (3885 Cesar Chavez St.) at 6:30 p.m.. On Tuesday, Nov. 14, she’ll appear at a ticketed release party at \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.exploretock.com/moongate-lounge-san-francisco/\">\u003ci>Moongate Lounge\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci> (28 Waverly Pl.) from 6–9 p.m. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13937806/fuchsia-dunlop-taught-me-how-to-cook-chinese-food","authors":["11743"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_12276"],"tags":["arts_21727","arts_16106","arts_10278","arts_1297","arts_1050","arts_989","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13937823","label":"source_arts_13937806"},"arts_13930923":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13930923","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13930923","score":null,"sort":[1687899384000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","title":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe","publishDate":1687899384,"format":"aside","headTitle":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe | KQED","labelTerm":{"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13930965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13930965\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"a white man and a woman pose on a rock in front of a lake\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1020x1020.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-768x768.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1536x1536.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1920x1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square.jpg 1976w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nate Brenner and Merrill Garbus are Tune-Yards, whose experimental indie pop sets the tone for Boots Riley’s new show, ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pooneh Ghana)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Given the many delightfully strange elements packed into \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13836455/in-sorry-to-bother-you-an-alternate-universe-oakland-is-still-true-and-familiar&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1687838246775907&usg=AOvVaw1djNgiIIFJwO-81Fyq3ZsQ\">\u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, Boots Riley’s 2018 directorial debut, one could be forgiven for overlooking its musical score. But from start to finish, the vocal-looped compositions created by Tune-Yards (Merrill Garbus and Nate Brenner) play a key role in bringing Riley’s surreal version of Oakland to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13836455']The same is true in \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>, Riley’s new series for Amazon Prime, which debuted on June 23 to rave reviews. The story, which follows a 13-foot-tall 19-year-old named Cootie (Jharrel Jerome) as he first discovers life outside his house, spans tones and genres; the plot contains elements of a superhero story, a heist movie, a romance, a buddy movie — there’s even an animated show-within-the-show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s consistent is the score, which works subtly but powerfully, almost as its own character. No one in modern pop music uses vocals as an instrument quite the way Tune-Yards does. Garbus’ voice surrounds the viewer, becoming a siren, then percussion; it’s layered into a Greek chorus; its timbre shifts nimbly with the show’s mood. The effect here is expansive — it adds weight to the storyline’s central tragedy, brings a light sweetness to Cootie’s experience of falling in love, and imbues action scenes with a colorful, off-kilter urgency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfpWY330mM\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Virgo\u003c/em> also seems to confirm that Tune-Yards has become the house band for the Boots Riley cinematic universe — the Danny Elfman to his Tim Burton, if you will — which means we can likely expect more from the partnership in years to come. (Riley has said he thinks of \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> as tracks No. 1 and 2 in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/boots-riley-interview-im-a-virgo-anti-capitalist-revolution-amazon-prime-1234772623/\">seven- or eight-track “cinematic album.”\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Garbus and Brenner work on material for a new Tune-Yards record, the score to \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> should be released on vinyl later this year. We called them up to hear more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: How did you and Boots meet? Were you fans of each other’s work first?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> I believe \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/gabbylalamusic/?hl=en\">Gabby [La La]\u003c/a>, his wife, liked Tune-Yards, and showed him some of our music. And then maybe he saw us at Stern Grove? But the first time we really met was New Year’s Eve 2012, when he opened for Erykah Badu at the Fox. His energy when he performed was just unbelievable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus: \u003c/strong>[His son] Django was only a couple months old at the time, and he was like, wearing him, with the little headphones on, hanging out between sets at the Fox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13927554']I grew up on the East Coast, so I only knew of the Coup peripherally, but once I started listening it was just completely up my alley. Coming from where I come from — my grandparents kind of hovered around the communism of New York Jews in the ’40s and ’50s, and I have a background in a lot of the stuff that I was hearing in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Had you ever scored a film before \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>? How did that part of your partnership begin?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> He was like “I’m making a movie, and I want you to do the music. Can I send you the screenplay?” A lot of times when people say they want Tune-Yards to score something, they mean they want us to write “Bizness” over again, or they want us to write “Water Fountain” over again. But with Boots, I had a feeling he was like, “No, I want all the weird of you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honestly, it sounded too amazing to ever be made into a movie. But I was like, sure, I’ll make some weird music. So we started demoing and recording, and we’d meet at Awaken Cafe and just talk. He wanted a lot of my vocals, and I was using a lot of this harmonizer pedal I was into at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no, we had never scored a film before. If you had asked me before if I wanted to, I probably would have been like “Ha! Sure.” But — maybe because I didn’t go to school for music — it always seemed out of the realm of possibility for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtsDLj7g_oF/?hl=en\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What was your process like for the \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> We had a lot of time before they even started filming, on both \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>. We uploaded probably 100 demos to a SoundCloud, and he was still writing the script while he was listening to those. So he’d be like, ‘Oh, that was cool, you guys sent me that thing and I changed the script to fit it.’ I think he also wound up playing demos for the cast as they were shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Boots is really clear about the sounds in his head, including instrumentation. When he told us the concept of the show, I was like ‘Oh, do you want superhero music?’ and he was like ‘No, I don’t. Here is what I want.’ And he gave us a couple references that were wildly different than what I ever would have conceived of: carillon bells; the 1956 Japanese film\u003cem> Street of Shame\u003c/em>, with music by [avant-garde composer] Toshiro Mayuzumi; \u003cem>Cape Fear\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Throughout the process he’d text us at, like, midnight on a Sunday, being like “Check this out! I don’t want it to sound \u003cem>like\u003c/em> this, but maybe have a similar vibe…”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931048\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a man and a woman in a music studio, the woman is wearing headphones and sitting at a computer and giving a thumbs up\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tune-Yards at their studio, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Having a really strong melody was important to him. He didn’t want it to be abstract music. But he also didn’t want it to be repetitive, like in \u003cem>White Lotus\u003c/em> where you hear the theme over and over again and you can’t get it out of your head … so a lot of the intuition about how to be musicians scoring a television show went out the window. As it did with \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>. We’d be like “Well, typically in movie scores they do this…” and he’d be like, “Erase that from your mind! I don’t want to do typical movie music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Also, he remembers \u003cem>everything\u003c/em>. He’d come over, like, two nights a week after our kid went to bed, and we’d play him something, and he’d give us notes. “OK, what if we tried a tambourine on this one?” And then we’d have a million things to do, and he’s busy, but four weeks later he’d be like “Let’s hear that tambourine.” He’s always throwing out so many ideas, you think he can’t possibly be keeping track of all of them. But he is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/p/CtkKuRkyH8U/\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>This show is set in a surreal version of Oakland. Were you consciously thinking about the sound of the Town when you were writing this score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> I think about Oakland and Oakland music traditions all the time, with the discomfort and self-consciousness of not growing up here, having moved here in 2009. I think Nate and Boots share a lot more of the George Clinton and Bootsy [Collins] thing, Nate grew up listening to that music. But I came to the Coup late, I came to E-40 late. I grew up on the East Coast with New York hip-hop and, like, Dave Matthews Band, the music of suburban Connecticut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is all to say, with the exception of the our very first record, all our albums — the music that has really made Tune-Yards Tune-Yards — has been when I’ve lived in Oakland, and it’s \u003cem>always\u003c/em> me trying to figure myself out here, myself as a white person here. I almost want to say “as an expat.”[aside postid='arts_13894750']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this show, though, I thought a lot about wanting to honor the fact that he asked \u003cem>us\u003c/em> to do this, he wanted Tune-Yards music. So we’re gonna do Tune-Yards music, knowing that Oakland is being filtered through us. Or maybe we’re being filtered through Oakland. Also, the references he gave us were so out there — like, from a Japanese film from the ’50s. If he wanted music that came from Oakland, he knows how to do that. But he wanted the world. He wants everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931049\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931049\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a woman sitting on the floor and a man sitting on a couch in a music studio\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Merrill Garbus and Boots Riley, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Were there any particularly challenging scenes or elements?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Definitely the psychic theater [a few segments in which Jones, an organizer played by Kara Young, delivers monologues about capitalism]. The last one is like seven and a half minutes of a character breaking down the exploitative and racist nature of capitalism. It really needs the music to help an audience stick around for that — even though Kara’s acting is amazing, and it’s extremely dynamic. But that’s another problem: how do you use music to move it along and also not get in the way of the dialogue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpagmvYZKRc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Those scenes are so wild to watch — for me, there was an element of “I can’t believe this is real, that this is going to be on a TV show distributed by Amazon.”\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> It’s definitely the first time I’ve seen an organizer as the main character in a TV show. There are just so many things [in this show that] we haven’t seen in mainstream culture. But there are organizers all over this country. And now someone could see that and think, ‘Oh, I want to do that in my community. I’ve never seen it before.’ It feels really instructive of how to use art in a way that can tap into people’s imaginations, open them up to different futures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll just say I hope this continues to be the time in our lives where we get to keep working with Boots Riley. \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> was a big change for me, and how I related to music. I think that indie pop, Pitchfork-y world of the mid-2000s that Tune-Yards came up in — I started to feel kind of constricted as an artist, as a creator. And it’s so satisfying to see Boots kind of bloom in pop culture at this particular moment in time. Just to be around him and be part of his creative universe has really opened my mind … It’s reinvigorated my sense of curiosity and inventiveness and wanting to do things that have never been done before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We worked harder on \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> than we have in a really long time, up late at night after our kid went to bed. Even just the amount of music that we wrote … it was all super intense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner: \u003c/strong>It’s one of those where, when you’re in the middle of it, you’re like, oh, we need a vacation as soon as this is over. But then when it’s over you’re like … what am I doing? And you just want to be working on it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘I’m A Virgo’ is streaming now on Amazon Prime. Tune-Yards is scheduled to perform at Gundlach Bundschu Winery in Sonoma on Aug. 22 and at the Center for the Arts in Grass Valley on Aug. 23; \u003ca href=\"https://tune-yards.com/tourdates/\">details here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The Oakland indie pop duo discusses their score for the rapper-activist-filmmaker's wild new show, 'I'm A Virgo.'","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005339,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":37,"wordCount":2132},"headData":{"title":"How Tune-Yards Became the House Band for the Boots Riley Cinematic Universe | KQED","description":"The Oakland indie pop duo discusses their score for the rapper-activist-filmmaker's wild new show, 'I'm A Virgo.'","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":""},"sticky":false,"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13930923/tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13930965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13930965\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"a white man and a woman pose on a rock in front of a lake\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1020x1020.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-768x768.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1536x1536.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square-1920x1920.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/tuneyards.square.jpg 1976w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nate Brenner and Merrill Garbus are Tune-Yards, whose experimental indie pop sets the tone for Boots Riley’s new show, ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pooneh Ghana)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Given the many delightfully strange elements packed into \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13836455/in-sorry-to-bother-you-an-alternate-universe-oakland-is-still-true-and-familiar&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1687838246775907&usg=AOvVaw1djNgiIIFJwO-81Fyq3ZsQ\">\u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, Boots Riley’s 2018 directorial debut, one could be forgiven for overlooking its musical score. But from start to finish, the vocal-looped compositions created by Tune-Yards (Merrill Garbus and Nate Brenner) play a key role in bringing Riley’s surreal version of Oakland to life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13836455","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The same is true in \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>, Riley’s new series for Amazon Prime, which debuted on June 23 to rave reviews. The story, which follows a 13-foot-tall 19-year-old named Cootie (Jharrel Jerome) as he first discovers life outside his house, spans tones and genres; the plot contains elements of a superhero story, a heist movie, a romance, a buddy movie — there’s even an animated show-within-the-show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What’s consistent is the score, which works subtly but powerfully, almost as its own character. No one in modern pop music uses vocals as an instrument quite the way Tune-Yards does. Garbus’ voice surrounds the viewer, becoming a siren, then percussion; it’s layered into a Greek chorus; its timbre shifts nimbly with the show’s mood. The effect here is expansive — it adds weight to the storyline’s central tragedy, brings a light sweetness to Cootie’s experience of falling in love, and imbues action scenes with a colorful, off-kilter urgency.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/DYfpWY330mM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/DYfpWY330mM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Virgo\u003c/em> also seems to confirm that Tune-Yards has become the house band for the Boots Riley cinematic universe — the Danny Elfman to his Tim Burton, if you will — which means we can likely expect more from the partnership in years to come. (Riley has said he thinks of \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> as tracks No. 1 and 2 in a \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/boots-riley-interview-im-a-virgo-anti-capitalist-revolution-amazon-prime-1234772623/\">seven- or eight-track “cinematic album.”\u003c/a>)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Garbus and Brenner work on material for a new Tune-Yards record, the score to \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> should be released on vinyl later this year. We called them up to hear more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: How did you and Boots meet? Were you fans of each other’s work first?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> I believe \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/gabbylalamusic/?hl=en\">Gabby [La La]\u003c/a>, his wife, liked Tune-Yards, and showed him some of our music. And then maybe he saw us at Stern Grove? But the first time we really met was New Year’s Eve 2012, when he opened for Erykah Badu at the Fox. His energy when he performed was just unbelievable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus: \u003c/strong>[His son] Django was only a couple months old at the time, and he was like, wearing him, with the little headphones on, hanging out between sets at the Fox.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13927554","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>I grew up on the East Coast, so I only knew of the Coup peripherally, but once I started listening it was just completely up my alley. Coming from where I come from — my grandparents kind of hovered around the communism of New York Jews in the ’40s and ’50s, and I have a background in a lot of the stuff that I was hearing in the music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Had you ever scored a film before \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>? How did that part of your partnership begin?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> He was like “I’m making a movie, and I want you to do the music. Can I send you the screenplay?” A lot of times when people say they want Tune-Yards to score something, they mean they want us to write “Bizness” over again, or they want us to write “Water Fountain” over again. But with Boots, I had a feeling he was like, “No, I want all the weird of you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Honestly, it sounded too amazing to ever be made into a movie. But I was like, sure, I’ll make some weird music. So we started demoing and recording, and we’d meet at Awaken Cafe and just talk. He wanted a lot of my vocals, and I was using a lot of this harmonizer pedal I was into at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no, we had never scored a film before. If you had asked me before if I wanted to, I probably would have been like “Ha! Sure.” But — maybe because I didn’t go to school for music — it always seemed out of the realm of possibility for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.instagram.com/reel/CtsDLj7g_oF/?hl=en\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What was your process like for the \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> We had a lot of time before they even started filming, on both \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> and \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em>. We uploaded probably 100 demos to a SoundCloud, and he was still writing the script while he was listening to those. So he’d be like, ‘Oh, that was cool, you guys sent me that thing and I changed the script to fit it.’ I think he also wound up playing demos for the cast as they were shooting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Boots is really clear about the sounds in his head, including instrumentation. When he told us the concept of the show, I was like ‘Oh, do you want superhero music?’ and he was like ‘No, I don’t. Here is what I want.’ And he gave us a couple references that were wildly different than what I ever would have conceived of: carillon bells; the 1956 Japanese film\u003cem> Street of Shame\u003c/em>, with music by [avant-garde composer] Toshiro Mayuzumi; \u003cem>Cape Fear\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Throughout the process he’d text us at, like, midnight on a Sunday, being like “Check this out! I don’t want it to sound \u003cem>like\u003c/em> this, but maybe have a similar vibe…”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931048\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931048\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a man and a woman in a music studio, the woman is wearing headphones and sitting at a computer and giving a thumbs up\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/vrgo_s1_ut_100_221024_leepet-00563.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tune-Yards at their studio, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Having a really strong melody was important to him. He didn’t want it to be abstract music. But he also didn’t want it to be repetitive, like in \u003cem>White Lotus\u003c/em> where you hear the theme over and over again and you can’t get it out of your head … so a lot of the intuition about how to be musicians scoring a television show went out the window. As it did with \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em>. We’d be like “Well, typically in movie scores they do this…” and he’d be like, “Erase that from your mind! I don’t want to do typical movie music.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner:\u003c/strong> Also, he remembers \u003cem>everything\u003c/em>. He’d come over, like, two nights a week after our kid went to bed, and we’d play him something, and he’d give us notes. “OK, what if we tried a tambourine on this one?” And then we’d have a million things to do, and he’s busy, but four weeks later he’d be like “Let’s hear that tambourine.” He’s always throwing out so many ideas, you think he can’t possibly be keeping track of all of them. But he is.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"instagramLink","attributes":{"named":{"instagramId":"CtkKuRkyH8U"},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>This show is set in a surreal version of Oakland. Were you consciously thinking about the sound of the Town when you were writing this score?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> I think about Oakland and Oakland music traditions all the time, with the discomfort and self-consciousness of not growing up here, having moved here in 2009. I think Nate and Boots share a lot more of the George Clinton and Bootsy [Collins] thing, Nate grew up listening to that music. But I came to the Coup late, I came to E-40 late. I grew up on the East Coast with New York hip-hop and, like, Dave Matthews Band, the music of suburban Connecticut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which is all to say, with the exception of the our very first record, all our albums — the music that has really made Tune-Yards Tune-Yards — has been when I’ve lived in Oakland, and it’s \u003cem>always\u003c/em> me trying to figure myself out here, myself as a white person here. I almost want to say “as an expat.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13894750","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With this show, though, I thought a lot about wanting to honor the fact that he asked \u003cem>us\u003c/em> to do this, he wanted Tune-Yards music. So we’re gonna do Tune-Yards music, knowing that Oakland is being filtered through us. Or maybe we’re being filtered through Oakland. Also, the references he gave us were so out there — like, from a Japanese film from the ’50s. If he wanted music that came from Oakland, he knows how to do that. But he wanted the world. He wants everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13931049\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13931049\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg\" alt=\"a woman sitting on the floor and a man sitting on a couch in a music studio\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-800x534.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705-768x512.jpeg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/iav-1705.jpeg 1499w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Merrill Garbus and Boots Riley, working on the score for ‘I’m A Virgo.’ \u003ccite>(Pete Lee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Were there any particularly challenging scenes or elements?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> Definitely the psychic theater [a few segments in which Jones, an organizer played by Kara Young, delivers monologues about capitalism]. The last one is like seven and a half minutes of a character breaking down the exploitative and racist nature of capitalism. It really needs the music to help an audience stick around for that — even though Kara’s acting is amazing, and it’s extremely dynamic. But that’s another problem: how do you use music to move it along and also not get in the way of the dialogue?\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/lpagmvYZKRc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/lpagmvYZKRc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"color: #ffffff\">p\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Those scenes are so wild to watch — for me, there was an element of “I can’t believe this is real, that this is going to be on a TV show distributed by Amazon.”\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Merrill Garbus:\u003c/strong> It’s definitely the first time I’ve seen an organizer as the main character in a TV show. There are just so many things [in this show that] we haven’t seen in mainstream culture. But there are organizers all over this country. And now someone could see that and think, ‘Oh, I want to do that in my community. I’ve never seen it before.’ It feels really instructive of how to use art in a way that can tap into people’s imaginations, open them up to different futures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll just say I hope this continues to be the time in our lives where we get to keep working with Boots Riley. \u003cem>Sorry to Bother You\u003c/em> was a big change for me, and how I related to music. I think that indie pop, Pitchfork-y world of the mid-2000s that Tune-Yards came up in — I started to feel kind of constricted as an artist, as a creator. And it’s so satisfying to see Boots kind of bloom in pop culture at this particular moment in time. Just to be around him and be part of his creative universe has really opened my mind … It’s reinvigorated my sense of curiosity and inventiveness and wanting to do things that have never been done before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We worked harder on \u003cem>I’m A Virgo\u003c/em> than we have in a really long time, up late at night after our kid went to bed. Even just the amount of music that we wrote … it was all super intense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nate Brenner: \u003c/strong>It’s one of those where, when you’re in the middle of it, you’re like, oh, we need a vacation as soon as this is over. But then when it’s over you’re like … what am I doing? And you just want to be working on it again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘I’m A Virgo’ is streaming now on Amazon Prime. Tune-Yards is scheduled to perform at Gundlach Bundschu Winery in Sonoma on Aug. 22 and at the Center for the Arts in Grass Valley on Aug. 23; \u003ca href=\"https://tune-yards.com/tourdates/\">details here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13930923/tune-yards-boots-riley-im-a-virgo","authors":["7237"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_835","arts_69","arts_990"],"tags":["arts_10589","arts_14347","arts_11374","arts_1998","arts_10342","arts_3607","arts_10278","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_1143","arts_10521","arts_989","arts_1584"],"featImg":"arts_13930964","label":"arts"},"arts_13929679":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13929679","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13929679","score":null,"sort":[1685123449000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","title":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin","publishDate":1685123449,"format":"standard","headTitle":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>An enjoyable exception to the usual prestige books about artists, \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!\u003c/em> evokes the iconoclastic personality of San Francisco’s preeminent underground filmmaker and The Other Cinema curator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written and compiled by Bay Area artists and curators Brett Kashmere and Steve Polta (and just published by their respective organizations, INCITE Journal of Experimental Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcinematheque.org/avant-to-live-events/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">San Francisco Cinematheque\u003c/a>), the massive tome frontloads a veritable trove of reminiscences, anecdotes, interviews and tributes before presenting an array of critical analyses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more than 40 years, Craig Baldwin has reappropriated images from discarded and forgotten educational and industrial movies (found footage, in the vernacular of experimental film) to craft brilliant, hyper-dense 16mm films critiquing U.S. exceptionalism, colonialism, capitalism and moviemaking. Given that his works — \u003cem>Tribulation 99: Alien Anomalies Under America\u003c/em>, \u003cem>¡O No Coronado!\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Sonic Outlaws\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Spectres of the Spectrum\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Mock Up on Mu \u003c/em>— are subversive mashups of experimental documentary, science-fiction fantasia and essay film, it’s fitting that \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live\u003c/em> is a hybrid zine, scrapbook, academic treatise and alternate social history of post-1970s San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Roxie\u003c/a> hosts a celebration of the book Sunday, May 28 and a retrospective of Baldwin’s films May 30–31. I met the Mission’s whirling dervish at his home base, the Artists’ Television Access space on Valencia St., for a typically chatty, digressive conversation. Baldwin greeted me with a lament about the current state of the building, where he’s screened thousands of alternative films since the ‘80s, and a brief history of the punk artists who preceded him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929714\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png\" alt=\"a book cover in black and white that reads 'Craig Baldwin' in white and in red 'Avant to live!'\" width=\"800\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-160x204.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-768x980.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ was recently published by San Francisco Cinematheque and INCITE: Journal of Experimental Media. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Baldwin:\u003c/strong> The history of this space [is that] it was too big — I think it was a bakery and a family could live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>KQED Arts:\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>A business in the front and the family lived upstairs.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s a brilliant idea. And you know what I call it? Live/work. [ATA and The Other] happened to be the destination space for people from the ‘burbs who would check this place out on a Saturday. You can’t get down the sidewalk. I’m not putting that down, by the way. I’m glad they come to the city. It’s too bad it doesn’t happen in their own neighborhoods but I’m glad to be presenting an alternative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we can hardly afford the rent. You know what’s two doors down? Dogue. If you want to serve your dog a $75 meal. Do you believe that? That is just m************ outrageous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I’m here on account of \u003cem>Avant to Live\u003c/em>, which has more love per page than the Kama Sutra.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like that. The writers are pouring love on me, if that’s what you mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929710\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929710\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white film of a young woman with light hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"581\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1020x741.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-768x558.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1536x1116.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1920x1395.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg 1922w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘FlickSkin.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Do you recall a formative moment when motion pictures, moving images, captured you more than theater, sports writing and your other adolescent creative pursuits?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first movie I ever saw, at the Village Theater when I was growing up in Sacramento. \u003cem>Lorna Doone\u003c/em>. You could look it up. Black-and-white. Anyone can come up with an anecdote like that. There’s nothing particularly meaningful about that … that probably happens to every kid who goes to see their first movie. But I remember that moment to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>But that experience didn’t make you a filmmaker.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What made me a maker was Super 8. The generation coming up now, they don’t have their Super 8. It was the tractability, flexibility, mutability, portability, ease, comfort of Super 8 that anyone in high school would be doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could borrow your best friend’s camera, or your parents might have a camera, and just go out and shoot. That’s probably it. But the found-footage thing, the Craig Baldwin thing, there is a story in the book about \u003cem>Stolen Movie\u003c/em>, which is playing at the Roxie [May 30] and \u003cem>FlickSkin\u003c/em>, the film that I made to get into the film program at [SF] State. I had my paintings in the Crocker Art Gallery in Sacramento. My mother probably sensed something, and she would drive me on a Saturday … many mothers do that, take their kids to art classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929709\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929709\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg\" alt=\"A blurry still from a movie, with a man in a red shirt with long blond hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1020x731.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-160x115.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-768x550.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1536x1101.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-2048x1468.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1920x1376.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from ‘Stolen Movie.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Then what made you different?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Good question. The subcultural thing [for one] … I was impoverished the whole time. I never went the pro route. Accident or nature or coincidence or God or whatever, I ended up having a roommate who had an uncle who ran a porn theater. I ended up sleeping in the projection booth. I saw what film was. Found film, to me —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>That is, film intended for one purpose —\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That I could re-use. But it was more the materiality. It could have been another way but I was in the porn field, I was close to the film, I was demystified, I was radicalized, I understood what it was, just light through a strip of celluloid. This was a public thing that people paid money to see, and it was nothing but that. And the way it was treated in that porn theater was not professional, you understand? It was devalued. It was degraded. It was the lowest, the gutter, and that’s what radicalized me. As a found-footage maker, I realized I could do that. For me, [film was] the artistic opportunity, the potential, the attraction, the allure, the eros, the desire to get your hands on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13929717 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg\" alt=\"a young man in a black and white striped shirt is seen looking at film \" width=\"800\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-1020x700.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-768x527.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg 1494w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Craig Baldwin in his editing niche at the Russians, cutting RocketKitKongoKit (1986), circa 1984. \u003ccite>(Photographer unknown)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anything else you recall about that porn house?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a very famous theater on the corner of Jones and Golden Gate. It was more like a pickup joint. People would just be standing, the screen would be there and people would be walking around. There were seats, but you weren’t expected to sit down. I said, ‘This is almost like an installation.’ Naïve, you understand. [I realized] film is not untouchable, film is not above me, not something I can’t reach. It is something at my level, it is free, cheap, like what I do here. [Baldwin waves his hand.] All these pieces of furniture were just found on the street. I wouldn’t buy a piece of furniture. It was just the way our generation lived. [Or at least] the way I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The tactile experience of shooting and editing film has been replaced by digital equipment. So what is the meaning of an image now? How does a 20-year-old maker connect with image-making, and does it matter?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just don’t know. It’s a rhetorical question. It’s more difficult for me to personally connect, which has something to do with my generation, but also has to do with my sensibility, which is more like a sculptor or a painter. It’s more assemblage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why Bruce Conner connected with me. \u003cem>A Movie\u003c/em> (Conner’s 1958 collage film that became a touchstone of experimental film) was part of an assemblage, part of an installation, of which there were a million things, the projector was part of it and the film was running on the projector. And he just said, “Let’s make this a standalone, let’s take the projector and the film and show it in a theater as opposed to a gallery.” That’s kind of an “aha” moment. Conner always identified himself as a sculptor, a visual artist. Moviemaker came way later in his career.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Viewers are somewhat more media-savvy than when you were editing shots from 1950s films into \u003cem>Tribulation 99\u003c/em> (1991). Do you think people trust images less than when you started out?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I never did trust it. I was always doing the fake news thing. Industrial films, educational films — for me the word is ideology. I was always trying to see through, X-ray, strip the whatever: capitalism, sexism, blah blah blah. I was radicalized. I happened to see the Bank of America burn in Isla Vista [in 1970] when I was 17 years old. I lived through it. For me, it was indulgent, silly, trivial to make films that weren’t addressing class war. That’s the dialectical materialism, that’s what you’re talking about. Class war almost seems like a quaint term, though I still believe in it. That’s what I’m still trying to get to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929711\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929711\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie with a sea monster\" width=\"800\" height=\"552\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1020x704.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-768x530.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1536x1060.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-2048x1413.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1920x1325.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘Tribulation 99.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>One of the pieces in the book describes a lifestyle that you came to embrace called “masochism on the margins.” \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not saying I change the world, or culture jam. Not that there’s just two paths, but by engagement with the more corporate model, which is the larger model, that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you are going to be able to make a difference, either. It’s a lose-lose situation, I guess you could say. So I choose the grind-me-up, self-sacrifice, marginal, the first guy they shoot kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I always point to Jonas Salk, my hero. My father had polio. Big deal. He got through. And I did, because we had our polio shots. A small group of people can make a big difference. It’s not just elite people, like Salk certainly was. But people can propose ideas, and those people themselves might not be “successful,” but their ideas can live a little bit, down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I learned from the book that you have a work in progress called \u003cem>Invisible Insurrection\u003c/em>. What can you tell me about it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not very far along. I’ll finish that film. It’s all down there [points to the basement]. I just haven’t had the time. I’m just crying, screaming, raging overwhelmed right now. It’s a little bit of a review of a cultural history, and this moment where there was a resistance against the Bomb and then there was the move to suburbia, which I’m a product of, and then there were the beatniks, and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happened is, there are particular humans that we can point to and say, “Well, that guy had a pretty good idea what was going on,” and [one] was William Burroughs. Now, how many movies are there about William Burroughs? A lot. In France, the same postwar, the same malaise, “something’s wrong, something’s being screwed up.” The generation there that comes up, that’s the same as Burroughs, had their coterie of thinkers that we might call the Situationists. So it’s a Situationist film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happens is Burroughs shoots his wife, ends up in Africa, writes \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em>, puts it together in Paris. Here’s Guy Debord, the guy who wrote \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em> (1967), which is also filled with quotes and aphorisms and citations — just like Burroughs. So these guys are developing a style which is a little bit reminiscent of everything we’ve been talking about today, which is this acknowledgement of philosophy and ideas that we have inherited that we think might be good, and putting together new combinations postwar, post-Bomb. They’re both writing [what] are arguably the most important books of our generation: \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929715\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929715\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie of a woman sitting looking into a microsope\" width=\"800\" height=\"611\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1020x779.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-160x122.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-768x587.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1536x1173.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1920x1466.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png 2040w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Baldwin’s ‘Spectres of the Spectrum.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What does your project do with those works?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I am doing is having a conversation, a fistfight, between Burroughs and Debord, set in ’59 in France. I have a trillion French-language films, you understand. The right period, but also a little bit self-reflexive and hilarious. But I could use the voices of Debord and Burroughs. And I can certainly use the actual words, that is to say, what they wrote. Technology has provided that for us: You can get more text than you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I can actually have those guys talking. I could recreate something that never happened. They never met. The point is I’m bringing them together. I will be able to have this discussion about intellectual history, about philosophical discourse, but in a para-narrative way. I [just] made that up. We see not only the discussion between Burroughs and Debord that never happened, but also the meeting of these two generations, the subcultures, the undergrounds, the progenitors of the ‘60s. Planting the seeds of resistance. A way of creating this moment postwar, our generation, in which these guys hash it out, in an essay form but not in a written linguistic form — in an enacted, embodied, imagistic form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ takes place May 28–31 at the Roxie Theater in San Francisco, kicking off with a book launch on May 28, screenings of Baldwin’s work May 30–31, and in-person appearances by the filmmaker at all events. \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\">Tickets and more info here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The publication of a career-spanning book is marked with a retrospective at the Roxie. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005448,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":40,"wordCount":2309},"headData":{"title":"‘Avant to Live’ Is a Monument to Beloved Mission Filmmaker Craig Baldwin | KQED","description":"The publication of a career-spanning book is marked with a retrospective at the Roxie. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":""},"sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13929679/avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>An enjoyable exception to the usual prestige books about artists, \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!\u003c/em> evokes the iconoclastic personality of San Francisco’s preeminent underground filmmaker and The Other Cinema curator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Written and compiled by Bay Area artists and curators Brett Kashmere and Steve Polta (and just published by their respective organizations, INCITE Journal of Experimental Media and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfcinematheque.org/avant-to-live-events/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">San Francisco Cinematheque\u003c/a>), the massive tome frontloads a veritable trove of reminiscences, anecdotes, interviews and tributes before presenting an array of critical analyses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more than 40 years, Craig Baldwin has reappropriated images from discarded and forgotten educational and industrial movies (found footage, in the vernacular of experimental film) to craft brilliant, hyper-dense 16mm films critiquing U.S. exceptionalism, colonialism, capitalism and moviemaking. Given that his works — \u003cem>Tribulation 99: Alien Anomalies Under America\u003c/em>, \u003cem>¡O No Coronado!\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Sonic Outlaws\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Spectres of the Spectrum\u003c/em>, \u003cem>Mock Up on Mu \u003c/em>— are subversive mashups of experimental documentary, science-fiction fantasia and essay film, it’s fitting that \u003cem>Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live\u003c/em> is a hybrid zine, scrapbook, academic treatise and alternate social history of post-1970s San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Roxie\u003c/a> hosts a celebration of the book Sunday, May 28 and a retrospective of Baldwin’s films May 30–31. I met the Mission’s whirling dervish at his home base, the Artists’ Television Access space on Valencia St., for a typically chatty, digressive conversation. Baldwin greeted me with a lament about the current state of the building, where he’s screened thousands of alternative films since the ‘80s, and a brief history of the punk artists who preceded him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929714\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929714\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png\" alt=\"a book cover in black and white that reads 'Craig Baldwin' in white and in red 'Avant to live!'\" width=\"800\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-800x1020.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-160x204.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1-768x980.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/AVANT_FrontCover-900x1148-1.png 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ was recently published by San Francisco Cinematheque and INCITE: Journal of Experimental Media. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Craig Baldwin:\u003c/strong> The history of this space [is that] it was too big — I think it was a bakery and a family could live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>KQED Arts:\u003c/strong> \u003cstrong>A business in the front and the family lived upstairs.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I think it’s a brilliant idea. And you know what I call it? Live/work. [ATA and The Other] happened to be the destination space for people from the ‘burbs who would check this place out on a Saturday. You can’t get down the sidewalk. I’m not putting that down, by the way. I’m glad they come to the city. It’s too bad it doesn’t happen in their own neighborhoods but I’m glad to be presenting an alternative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we can hardly afford the rent. You know what’s two doors down? Dogue. If you want to serve your dog a $75 meal. Do you believe that? That is just m************ outrageous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I’m here on account of \u003cem>Avant to Live\u003c/em>, which has more love per page than the Kama Sutra.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I like that. The writers are pouring love on me, if that’s what you mean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929710\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929710\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white film of a young woman with light hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"581\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-800x581.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1020x741.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-768x558.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1536x1116.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1-1920x1395.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_13_FlickSkin_018-1.jpg 1922w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘FlickSkin.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Do you recall a formative moment when motion pictures, moving images, captured you more than theater, sports writing and your other adolescent creative pursuits?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first movie I ever saw, at the Village Theater when I was growing up in Sacramento. \u003cem>Lorna Doone\u003c/em>. You could look it up. Black-and-white. Anyone can come up with an anecdote like that. There’s nothing particularly meaningful about that … that probably happens to every kid who goes to see their first movie. But I remember that moment to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>But that experience didn’t make you a filmmaker.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What made me a maker was Super 8. The generation coming up now, they don’t have their Super 8. It was the tractability, flexibility, mutability, portability, ease, comfort of Super 8 that anyone in high school would be doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You could borrow your best friend’s camera, or your parents might have a camera, and just go out and shoot. That’s probably it. But the found-footage thing, the Craig Baldwin thing, there is a story in the book about \u003cem>Stolen Movie\u003c/em>, which is playing at the Roxie [May 30] and \u003cem>FlickSkin\u003c/em>, the film that I made to get into the film program at [SF] State. I had my paintings in the Crocker Art Gallery in Sacramento. My mother probably sensed something, and she would drive me on a Saturday … many mothers do that, take their kids to art classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929709\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929709\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg\" alt=\"A blurry still from a movie, with a man in a red shirt with long blond hair\" width=\"800\" height=\"573\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-800x573.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1020x731.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-160x115.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-768x550.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1536x1101.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-2048x1468.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/StolenMovie-1920x1376.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from ‘Stolen Movie.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Then what made you different?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Good question. The subcultural thing [for one] … I was impoverished the whole time. I never went the pro route. Accident or nature or coincidence or God or whatever, I ended up having a roommate who had an uncle who ran a porn theater. I ended up sleeping in the projection booth. I saw what film was. Found film, to me —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>That is, film intended for one purpose —\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That I could re-use. But it was more the materiality. It could have been another way but I was in the porn field, I was close to the film, I was demystified, I was radicalized, I understood what it was, just light through a strip of celluloid. This was a public thing that people paid money to see, and it was nothing but that. And the way it was treated in that porn theater was not professional, you understand? It was devalued. It was degraded. It was the lowest, the gutter, and that’s what radicalized me. As a found-footage maker, I realized I could do that. For me, [film was] the artistic opportunity, the potential, the attraction, the allure, the eros, the desire to get your hands on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929717\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-13929717 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg\" alt=\"a young man in a black and white striped shirt is seen looking at film \" width=\"800\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-800x549.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-1020x700.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing-768x527.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/FIG_78_Baldwin_editing.jpg 1494w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Craig Baldwin in his editing niche at the Russians, cutting RocketKitKongoKit (1986), circa 1984. \u003ccite>(Photographer unknown)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anything else you recall about that porn house?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a very famous theater on the corner of Jones and Golden Gate. It was more like a pickup joint. People would just be standing, the screen would be there and people would be walking around. There were seats, but you weren’t expected to sit down. I said, ‘This is almost like an installation.’ Naïve, you understand. [I realized] film is not untouchable, film is not above me, not something I can’t reach. It is something at my level, it is free, cheap, like what I do here. [Baldwin waves his hand.] All these pieces of furniture were just found on the street. I wouldn’t buy a piece of furniture. It was just the way our generation lived. [Or at least] the way I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The tactile experience of shooting and editing film has been replaced by digital equipment. So what is the meaning of an image now? How does a 20-year-old maker connect with image-making, and does it matter?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I just don’t know. It’s a rhetorical question. It’s more difficult for me to personally connect, which has something to do with my generation, but also has to do with my sensibility, which is more like a sculptor or a painter. It’s more assemblage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why Bruce Conner connected with me. \u003cem>A Movie\u003c/em> (Conner’s 1958 collage film that became a touchstone of experimental film) was part of an assemblage, part of an installation, of which there were a million things, the projector was part of it and the film was running on the projector. And he just said, “Let’s make this a standalone, let’s take the projector and the film and show it in a theater as opposed to a gallery.” That’s kind of an “aha” moment. Conner always identified himself as a sculptor, a visual artist. Moviemaker came way later in his career.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Viewers are somewhat more media-savvy than when you were editing shots from 1950s films into \u003cem>Tribulation 99\u003c/em> (1991). Do you think people trust images less than when you started out?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I never did trust it. I was always doing the fake news thing. Industrial films, educational films — for me the word is ideology. I was always trying to see through, X-ray, strip the whatever: capitalism, sexism, blah blah blah. I was radicalized. I happened to see the Bank of America burn in Isla Vista [in 1970] when I was 17 years old. I lived through it. For me, it was indulgent, silly, trivial to make films that weren’t addressing class war. That’s the dialectical materialism, that’s what you’re talking about. Class war almost seems like a quaint term, though I still believe in it. That’s what I’m still trying to get to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929711\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929711\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie with a sea monster\" width=\"800\" height=\"552\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-800x552.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1020x704.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-160x110.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-768x530.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1536x1060.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-2048x1413.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/TRIB99_creature-1920x1325.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Craig Baldwin’s ‘Tribulation 99.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>One of the pieces in the book describes a lifestyle that you came to embrace called “masochism on the margins.” \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not saying I change the world, or culture jam. Not that there’s just two paths, but by engagement with the more corporate model, which is the larger model, that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you are going to be able to make a difference, either. It’s a lose-lose situation, I guess you could say. So I choose the grind-me-up, self-sacrifice, marginal, the first guy they shoot kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I always point to Jonas Salk, my hero. My father had polio. Big deal. He got through. And I did, because we had our polio shots. A small group of people can make a big difference. It’s not just elite people, like Salk certainly was. But people can propose ideas, and those people themselves might not be “successful,” but their ideas can live a little bit, down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I learned from the book that you have a work in progress called \u003cem>Invisible Insurrection\u003c/em>. What can you tell me about it?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m not very far along. I’ll finish that film. It’s all down there [points to the basement]. I just haven’t had the time. I’m just crying, screaming, raging overwhelmed right now. It’s a little bit of a review of a cultural history, and this moment where there was a resistance against the Bomb and then there was the move to suburbia, which I’m a product of, and then there were the beatniks, and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happened is, there are particular humans that we can point to and say, “Well, that guy had a pretty good idea what was going on,” and [one] was William Burroughs. Now, how many movies are there about William Burroughs? A lot. In France, the same postwar, the same malaise, “something’s wrong, something’s being screwed up.” The generation there that comes up, that’s the same as Burroughs, had their coterie of thinkers that we might call the Situationists. So it’s a Situationist film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What happens is Burroughs shoots his wife, ends up in Africa, writes \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em>, puts it together in Paris. Here’s Guy Debord, the guy who wrote \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em> (1967), which is also filled with quotes and aphorisms and citations — just like Burroughs. So these guys are developing a style which is a little bit reminiscent of everything we’ve been talking about today, which is this acknowledgement of philosophy and ideas that we have inherited that we think might be good, and putting together new combinations postwar, post-Bomb. They’re both writing [what] are arguably the most important books of our generation: \u003cem>Naked Lunch\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Society of the Spectacle\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13929715\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13929715\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png\" alt=\"a still from a black and white movie of a woman sitting looking into a microsope\" width=\"800\" height=\"611\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-800x611.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1020x779.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-160x122.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-768x587.png 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1536x1173.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1-1920x1466.png 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/Spectres-of-the-Spectrum-1.png 2040w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A still from Baldwin’s ‘Spectres of the Spectrum.’ \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Cinematheque)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What does your project do with those works?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What I am doing is having a conversation, a fistfight, between Burroughs and Debord, set in ’59 in France. I have a trillion French-language films, you understand. The right period, but also a little bit self-reflexive and hilarious. But I could use the voices of Debord and Burroughs. And I can certainly use the actual words, that is to say, what they wrote. Technology has provided that for us: You can get more text than you want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I can actually have those guys talking. I could recreate something that never happened. They never met. The point is I’m bringing them together. I will be able to have this discussion about intellectual history, about philosophical discourse, but in a para-narrative way. I [just] made that up. We see not only the discussion between Burroughs and Debord that never happened, but also the meeting of these two generations, the subcultures, the undergrounds, the progenitors of the ‘60s. Planting the seeds of resistance. A way of creating this moment postwar, our generation, in which these guys hash it out, in an essay form but not in a written linguistic form — in an enacted, embodied, imagistic form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>‘Craig Baldwin: Avant to Live!’ takes place May 28–31 at the Roxie Theater in San Francisco, kicking off with a book launch on May 28, screenings of Baldwin’s work May 30–31, and in-person appearances by the filmmaker at all events. \u003ca href=\"https://roxie.com/series/craig-baldwin-avant-to-live/\">Tickets and more info here\u003c/a>. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13929679/avant-to-live-is-a-monument-to-beloved-mission-filmmaker-craig-baldwin","authors":["22"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_73","arts_74"],"tags":["arts_5053","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_1257","arts_989","arts_9879","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13929704","label":"arts_140"},"arts_13927554":{"type":"posts","id":"arts_13927554","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"arts","id":"13927554","score":null,"sort":[1681231436000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","title":"How to Write Film Music That Stops Time","publishDate":1681231436,"format":"standard","headTitle":"How to Write Film Music That Stops Time | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":140,"site":"arts"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 4.6875em;float: left;line-height: 0.733em;padding: 0.05em 0.1em 0 0;font-family: times, serif, georgia\">T\u003c/span>here’s a standout scene in \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, Barry Jenkins’ widely acclaimed 2016 coming-of-age film, that doesn’t have the typical “pivotal moment” hallmarks of an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCQn_FkFElI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oscars Best Picture winner\u003c/a>. There’s not a big speech. Not a lot really happens, even.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the scene in which Juan (Mahershala Ali) teaches Little (Alex Hibbert) how to swim is rich text for other reasons. There’s the painterly light, athletic camera work. The symbolism is somehow both striking and understated — a rare glimpse of Black masculinity as a nurturing force, as well as what Jenkins has called a “spiritual transference” between these two characters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the music. Bright, anxious violins pick up speed as the figurative baptism progresses; over the course of a two-minute piece, composer Nicholas Britell’s score reflects the beauty and danger of the ocean, as well as the complex sea of emotions in our young protagonist: determination, hope and fear. I dare you to find me someone who didn’t sit in the movie theater holding their breath for the entire scene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6yMItXePG8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the seven years since \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>’s release, with films like \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em> and the limited series \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, the partnership between Jenkins and Britell has produced numerous breathtaking moments like this. Jenkins tells stories of Black America, consistently turning an artful, unflinching eye on protagonists who are limited or literally trapped by injustice, by poverty and incarceration. And while Jenkins’ writing and direction are deeply empathetic, it’s often Britell’s scores — soaring, evocative works that apply R&B and hip-hop production techniques to classical music — that grant these characters their full humanity, reminding us that even people living in the most tragic of circumstances experience a vast range of emotion, including love and yearning along with anguish.[aside postid='forum_2010101892493']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A horn line swells, and we remember — oh, right. Every single person I meet has an entire universe of pain and beauty and unfulfilled dreams swirling inside them at all times. And then we weep uncontrollably into our popcorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Britell, a classically trained pianist, has been a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/About-SFS/Collaborative-Partners\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">collaborative partner\u003c/a>” with the San Francisco Symphony since 2018. But his April 14–15 events with Jenkins at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/soundbox\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">SoundBox\u003c/a>, with Symphony musicians performing works from \u003cem>Moonlight,\u003c/em> \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, will present his most personal collaboration yet with the organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: Barry, your projects have always shown a love of music, even going back to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/24154/medicine_for_melancholy\">\u003cem>Medicine for Melancholy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Can you talk about where music lives in your writing process? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> Music has always been part of it. I mean, I’ve always been surrounded by music — I grew up in a household where, even though we were so extremely poor, there was always music playing. Or I would go to the flea market and get tapes — and this is terrible as someone who now makes a living from copywritten material — but people would make these cassette tapes with all these different songs on them, and you could get a tape for like five bucks, as opposed to an album, which cost 15 or 20 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13844783']And I’ve always listened to music while I write. When I first got to college and started pursuing creative writing and working on film, I would go to this café to work. And between coffee, wine and music, I found that I could slip into a place where I could translate the feeling of what was happening in the scene in my head to the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also when I was discovering the filmmakers who became foundational to my idea of what cinema was, people like Claire Denis and Wong Kar-wai, and they used music in a very open, very clear way. In film school, I was taught music is meant to be in the background of a film, which is kind of making it elevator music. So I was like, \u003cem>No, no, no:\u003c/em> I’ve seen films where you can use this combination of sound and images and score to really elevate what the character was feeling. That’s the place it’s always had for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927608\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"a black and white photo of a young Black man in a dark collared shirt with glasses, smiling at the camera \" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-768x509.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1536x1018.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-2048x1358.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1920x1273.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Barry Jenkins’ San Francisco-set debut feature, ‘Medicine for Melancholy,’ will be released by The Criterion Collection in June, with new commentary from the filmmaker. \u003ccite>(Matt Morris)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You’ve both spoken about not wanting to tell the audience how to feel, that it’s more about music that sounds the way the characters feel — kind of achieving interiority through music. Which, especially as a non-musician, seems mystical to me. Can you talk about what it looks like to get into that headspace and compose for different characters, especially people with very different lived experiences from your own?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> It can \u003cem>feel\u003c/em> mystical; I also use the word “alchemy” a lot. And so much of it is about this incredibly close collaboration, searching \u003cem>together\u003c/em> for things — I’m never working alone. Which is why it’s so special that Barry and I are doing this show; we get into this stream of consciousness when we’re in the room together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, for example, Barry said “I’m hearing brass and horns.” So I started thinking about the scene where Tish and Fonny have finally been able to rent that apartment, and they’re in the street and they start shouting to the sky with joy. I think a lot about shapes. I feel that the shapes of things in music actually affect us all in similar ways. So, OK, I want the music to go upward — to shout to the sky. Well, what if it’s a trumpet shouting to the sky? And then I start doing experiments with brass, French horns, clarinet, trumpet, flugelhorn, piccolo trumpet, and I kind of go off into the wilderness and try things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, through experimenting together, we realized it was missing cellos. Like, \u003cem>oh, the cellos are the feeling of love.\u003c/em> And all of a sudden, if I take the chords that I was playing with brass but the cellos play them, everything feels different. It’s never, oh, what key signature is this, or what type of chord is this. It ultimately always comes back to feelings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmK71ZfaZO4\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audiences have these incredibly poignant, personal responses to these scores, where the music seems to help them access complicated feelings about their own lives. Have you seen \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWQ7neoBhCE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the comments\u003c/a> on “Agape” on YouTube?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> They’re nuts. (Laughs.) Nuts! Way more people have listened to that piece than have even heard of this film. Way more people are going to hear that song than will ever watch \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em>. And I remember being there at the moment of its creation, in this really diligent but simple process of chasing what that moment felt like, both within the film and within the characters’ lives. It’s this very aspirational moment, when Tish is at her most hopeful, like everything is on the table for this family. And Nick just did this thing where he had the song keep reaching \u003cem>up and up and up\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Barry Jenkins\"]‘[James] Baldwin was … bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.’[/pullquote]But the way that piece of music connects with people, and this is me saying this, not Nick — these are Black films and this is Black music. It really is. And it’s amazing to me there are white people all over the world, we’ve seen this on Instagram, who walk down the aisle to this piece of music. I say it’s Black music because what Mr. Baldwin was writing, and what Regina and Stephan and KiKi are doing in that sequence, is bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I get a little tipsy and I go read those comments on YouTube, I see that the whole journey of making that film, even if people only accessed it through hearing this one song, would have been worth it. Because the way people respond to the feeling of that music … I mean, sometimes it knocks me down. If you want to know the power, the effect, the legitimate movement that a piece of score can create, go look up that thing on YouTube and the things that complete strangers — who have no skin in the game on how successful this film is or isn’t! — and they’re just pouring themselves out about what this piece of music means to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927605\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a young white man with light brown hair in a black button-down shirt and glasses looks down away from the camera\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nicholas Britell’s other scores include collaborations with director Adam McKay, including ‘The Big Short’ and ‘Don’t Look Up,’ as well as the HBO show ‘Succession.’ \u003ccite>(Emma McIntyre)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> I’ll just add that the music that I write with Barry is unlike anything else that I write. In some ways, I think Barry lets me tap into different emotions, and there are certain feelings that I think we are both drawn to. And I get to figure out: what is the sound of that? So much of what we do is experimentation — Barry will like a kernel of something, so we follow that, but we don’t know where we’re going. Just that when we’re there, we’ll know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> were both so rooted in Miami and New York, respectively, the cities where they took place. But \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> takes us to so many different locations, and then also has surreal elements. How do you find the sound for something of that scope, especially without the anchor of a specific, singular time or place?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postid='arts_13897166']\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> The scale and scope and difficulty of \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was unlike anything I’d ever done. I remember Barry saying to me, you know, each state is a different state of mind for Cora — and we thought of it almost like different planets. Because that journey is unlike \u003cem>anything\u003c/em>. As a comparison, it’s not \u003cem>Succession,\u003c/em> where, from episode 1 to 2, we’re probably in New York City, probably in the Roy family. This is like we’re in a different \u003cem>universe\u003c/em>. We’re in a different dimension, possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the sonic experimentation, just the amount that we were going to push… we look at \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, where there was the idea of using \u003ca href=\"https://ra.co/features/4040\">chopped and screwed\u003c/a> as a technique, or in \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, where we’re taking the sounds of love and harming them so they’re broken and they become a sound of injustice. On \u003cem>Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, it was times 100. How do we push things to feel beyond what we can even imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, what is the architecture? Because if you establish a musical idea at the very beginning of a film, part of the beauty, hopefully, is that if it comes back later, you have a memory of having felt it — even just subconsciously. So multiplying that across 10 episodes, when do we echo back? I remember showing Barry some new ideas at one point, and he was like, ‘You know what? No new ideas. We’re done.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sUIo56q-Qw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was definitely less of a literal journey, but to me it was also a much more clear emotional one: every state is different, because Cora’s mental state has shifted in addition to the setting. What Nick said about planets — I love that because different planets have different atmospheres, and these soundscapes are like those atmospheres. Venus is not like Mars, you know, it’s got to be completely different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’re also responding to the world around us. [At one point during production] Nick and Caitlin, his wife, who’s a cellist, had moved out to L.A., and Nick, do you remember Caitlin took up this hobby of birdwatching?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell: \u003c/strong>She’s still doing it. She’s an avid birder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> She had all these feeders around, so there were these hummingbirds always around the studio. And I was thinking the other day, Nick, about the track “Fireflies.” And there’s a harp that’s played really fast, and to me, that’s the hummingbird wings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927602\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a crowd of people sits watching classical musicians perform in a dark club-like space with large artworks projected onto the walls and ceiling\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘SoundBox: Modern Sanctuary,’ conducted by Edwin Outwater in February 2020. \u003ccite>(Mike Grittani/Grittani Creative)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you want people to know going into these SoundBox shows?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> These performances are something Barry and I have never really done. While we’ve played \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> live to picture before with orchestras, we have never actually performed in the authentic forms of the film with the original orchestrations. This is something we’ve been talking about since these were first written — like, how could we do this? \u003cem>Can\u003c/em> we do this? Because, for example, \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> is as much an orchestration exercise, with these different instrument colors, as it is about these very special reverbs at times, where you hear the sounds sort of floating and soaring and swirling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>We have heard stories about the reverb quality of SoundBox and we are hoping to put it through its paces. We’ve heard it’s legit. And the cats that work there are out to prove to us that it’s legit, so we’re pushing the boundaries with this concert.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll also say — I moved to the Bay at a time in my life when I was incredibly down on myself, and I went through some ups and downs there. And I’d walk past the Symphony all the time, and I just never thought … There are going to be images of Black folks projected all throughout this show. These folks are going to be playing music that I think organically reflects the experience of Black people. And I just never, never thought there was a world in which that would ever happen. It’s gonna be very cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘SoundBox: In Conversation With Nicholas Britell and Barry Jenkins’ takes place at 9 p.m. on Friday, April 14 and Saturday, April 15 at the San Francisco Symphony’s SoundBox (300 Franklin St., San Francisco). Tickets start at $99; \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/Buy-Tickets/2022-23/SBX-NicholasBritell\">details here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell discuss the alchemy behind their breathtaking scores for 'Moonlight' and 'If Beale Street Could Talk.'","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1705005640,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":36,"wordCount":2569},"headData":{"title":"Q&A: Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell Discuss 'Moonlight,' 'If Beale Street Could Talk' | KQED","description":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15.","ogTitle":"Barry Jenkins, Nicholas Britell, and Film Music That Stops Time","ogDescription":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15.","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"Barry Jenkins, Nicholas Britell, and Film Music That Stops Time","twDescription":"Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell discuss the alchemy of breathtaking film scores for 'Moonlight' and 'If Beale Street Could Talk.'","twImgId":"","socialTitle":"Q&A: Barry Jenkins and Nicholas Britell Discuss 'Moonlight,' 'If Beale Street Could Talk' %%page%% %%sep%% KQED","socialDescription":"The director and composer reveal what goes into a breathtaking film score. The two appear in San Francisco April 14–15."},"sticky":false,"templateType":"standard","featuredImageType":"standard","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/arts/13927554/barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-size: 4.6875em;float: left;line-height: 0.733em;padding: 0.05em 0.1em 0 0;font-family: times, serif, georgia\">T\u003c/span>here’s a standout scene in \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, Barry Jenkins’ widely acclaimed 2016 coming-of-age film, that doesn’t have the typical “pivotal moment” hallmarks of an \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCQn_FkFElI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Oscars Best Picture winner\u003c/a>. There’s not a big speech. Not a lot really happens, even.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the scene in which Juan (Mahershala Ali) teaches Little (Alex Hibbert) how to swim is rich text for other reasons. There’s the painterly light, athletic camera work. The symbolism is somehow both striking and understated — a rare glimpse of Black masculinity as a nurturing force, as well as what Jenkins has called a “spiritual transference” between these two characters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the music. Bright, anxious violins pick up speed as the figurative baptism progresses; over the course of a two-minute piece, composer Nicholas Britell’s score reflects the beauty and danger of the ocean, as well as the complex sea of emotions in our young protagonist: determination, hope and fear. I dare you to find me someone who didn’t sit in the movie theater holding their breath for the entire scene.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/z6yMItXePG8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/z6yMItXePG8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>In the seven years since \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>’s release, with films like \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em> and the limited series \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, the partnership between Jenkins and Britell has produced numerous breathtaking moments like this. Jenkins tells stories of Black America, consistently turning an artful, unflinching eye on protagonists who are limited or literally trapped by injustice, by poverty and incarceration. And while Jenkins’ writing and direction are deeply empathetic, it’s often Britell’s scores — soaring, evocative works that apply R&B and hip-hop production techniques to classical music — that grant these characters their full humanity, reminding us that even people living in the most tragic of circumstances experience a vast range of emotion, including love and yearning along with anguish.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"forum_2010101892493","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A horn line swells, and we remember — oh, right. Every single person I meet has an entire universe of pain and beauty and unfulfilled dreams swirling inside them at all times. And then we weep uncontrollably into our popcorn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Britell, a classically trained pianist, has been a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/About-SFS/Collaborative-Partners\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">collaborative partner\u003c/a>” with the San Francisco Symphony since 2018. But his April 14–15 events with Jenkins at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/tag/soundbox\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">SoundBox\u003c/a>, with Symphony musicians performing works from \u003cem>Moonlight,\u003c/em> \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, will present his most personal collaboration yet with the organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This interview has been edited for length and clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Emma Silvers: Barry, your projects have always shown a love of music, even going back to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/24154/medicine_for_melancholy\">\u003cem>Medicine for Melancholy\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Can you talk about where music lives in your writing process? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> Music has always been part of it. I mean, I’ve always been surrounded by music — I grew up in a household where, even though we were so extremely poor, there was always music playing. Or I would go to the flea market and get tapes — and this is terrible as someone who now makes a living from copywritten material — but people would make these cassette tapes with all these different songs on them, and you could get a tape for like five bucks, as opposed to an album, which cost 15 or 20 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13844783","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And I’ve always listened to music while I write. When I first got to college and started pursuing creative writing and working on film, I would go to this café to work. And between coffee, wine and music, I found that I could slip into a place where I could translate the feeling of what was happening in the scene in my head to the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was also when I was discovering the filmmakers who became foundational to my idea of what cinema was, people like Claire Denis and Wong Kar-wai, and they used music in a very open, very clear way. In film school, I was taught music is meant to be in the background of a film, which is kind of making it elevator music. So I was like, \u003cem>No, no, no:\u003c/em> I’ve seen films where you can use this combination of sound and images and score to really elevate what the character was feeling. That’s the place it’s always had for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927608\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927608\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"a black and white photo of a young Black man in a dark collared shirt with glasses, smiling at the camera \" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-768x509.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1536x1018.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-2048x1358.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/3519cb71-3220-4c5f-bd61-a040847310ed-1920x1273.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Barry Jenkins’ San Francisco-set debut feature, ‘Medicine for Melancholy,’ will be released by The Criterion Collection in June, with new commentary from the filmmaker. \u003ccite>(Matt Morris)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>You’ve both spoken about not wanting to tell the audience how to feel, that it’s more about music that sounds the way the characters feel — kind of achieving interiority through music. Which, especially as a non-musician, seems mystical to me. Can you talk about what it looks like to get into that headspace and compose for different characters, especially people with very different lived experiences from your own?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> It can \u003cem>feel\u003c/em> mystical; I also use the word “alchemy” a lot. And so much of it is about this incredibly close collaboration, searching \u003cem>together\u003c/em> for things — I’m never working alone. Which is why it’s so special that Barry and I are doing this show; we get into this stream of consciousness when we’re in the room together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, for example, Barry said “I’m hearing brass and horns.” So I started thinking about the scene where Tish and Fonny have finally been able to rent that apartment, and they’re in the street and they start shouting to the sky with joy. I think a lot about shapes. I feel that the shapes of things in music actually affect us all in similar ways. So, OK, I want the music to go upward — to shout to the sky. Well, what if it’s a trumpet shouting to the sky? And then I start doing experiments with brass, French horns, clarinet, trumpet, flugelhorn, piccolo trumpet, and I kind of go off into the wilderness and try things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, through experimenting together, we realized it was missing cellos. Like, \u003cem>oh, the cellos are the feeling of love.\u003c/em> And all of a sudden, if I take the chords that I was playing with brass but the cellos play them, everything feels different. It’s never, oh, what key signature is this, or what type of chord is this. It ultimately always comes back to feelings.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/mmK71ZfaZO4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/mmK71ZfaZO4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audiences have these incredibly poignant, personal responses to these scores, where the music seems to help them access complicated feelings about their own lives. Have you seen \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWQ7neoBhCE\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">the comments\u003c/a> on “Agape” on YouTube?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> They’re nuts. (Laughs.) Nuts! Way more people have listened to that piece than have even heard of this film. Way more people are going to hear that song than will ever watch \u003cem>If Beale Street Could Talk\u003c/em>. And I remember being there at the moment of its creation, in this really diligent but simple process of chasing what that moment felt like, both within the film and within the characters’ lives. It’s this very aspirational moment, when Tish is at her most hopeful, like everything is on the table for this family. And Nick just did this thing where he had the song keep reaching \u003cem>up and up and up\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘[James] Baldwin was … bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"align":"right","size":"medium","citation":"Barry Jenkins","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>But the way that piece of music connects with people, and this is me saying this, not Nick — these are Black films and this is Black music. It really is. And it’s amazing to me there are white people all over the world, we’ve seen this on Instagram, who walk down the aisle to this piece of music. I say it’s Black music because what Mr. Baldwin was writing, and what Regina and Stephan and KiKi are doing in that sequence, is bottling this nuclear atom of the hopes, the aspirations, the yearning, the melancholy of Black life in America. And Nick somehow found a way to get in there and really translate that into music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I get a little tipsy and I go read those comments on YouTube, I see that the whole journey of making that film, even if people only accessed it through hearing this one song, would have been worth it. Because the way people respond to the feeling of that music … I mean, sometimes it knocks me down. If you want to know the power, the effect, the legitimate movement that a piece of score can create, go look up that thing on YouTube and the things that complete strangers — who have no skin in the game on how successful this film is or isn’t! — and they’re just pouring themselves out about what this piece of music means to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927605\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927605\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a young white man with light brown hair in a black button-down shirt and glasses looks down away from the camera\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/image0-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Nicholas Britell’s other scores include collaborations with director Adam McKay, including ‘The Big Short’ and ‘Don’t Look Up,’ as well as the HBO show ‘Succession.’ \u003ccite>(Emma McIntyre)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> I’ll just add that the music that I write with Barry is unlike anything else that I write. In some ways, I think Barry lets me tap into different emotions, and there are certain feelings that I think we are both drawn to. And I get to figure out: what is the sound of that? So much of what we do is experimentation — Barry will like a kernel of something, so we follow that, but we don’t know where we’re going. Just that when we’re there, we’ll know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> were both so rooted in Miami and New York, respectively, the cities where they took place. But \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> takes us to so many different locations, and then also has surreal elements. How do you find the sound for something of that scope, especially without the anchor of a specific, singular time or place?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"postid":"arts_13897166","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> The scale and scope and difficulty of \u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was unlike anything I’d ever done. I remember Barry saying to me, you know, each state is a different state of mind for Cora — and we thought of it almost like different planets. Because that journey is unlike \u003cem>anything\u003c/em>. As a comparison, it’s not \u003cem>Succession,\u003c/em> where, from episode 1 to 2, we’re probably in New York City, probably in the Roy family. This is like we’re in a different \u003cem>universe\u003c/em>. We’re in a different dimension, possibly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there’s the sonic experimentation, just the amount that we were going to push… we look at \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em>, where there was the idea of using \u003ca href=\"https://ra.co/features/4040\">chopped and screwed\u003c/a> as a technique, or in \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em>, where we’re taking the sounds of love and harming them so they’re broken and they become a sound of injustice. On \u003cem>Underground Railroad\u003c/em>, it was times 100. How do we push things to feel beyond what we can even imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, what is the architecture? Because if you establish a musical idea at the very beginning of a film, part of the beauty, hopefully, is that if it comes back later, you have a memory of having felt it — even just subconsciously. So multiplying that across 10 episodes, when do we echo back? I remember showing Barry some new ideas at one point, and he was like, ‘You know what? No new ideas. We’re done.’\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/-sUIo56q-Qw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/-sUIo56q-Qw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Underground Railroad\u003c/em> was definitely less of a literal journey, but to me it was also a much more clear emotional one: every state is different, because Cora’s mental state has shifted in addition to the setting. What Nick said about planets — I love that because different planets have different atmospheres, and these soundscapes are like those atmospheres. Venus is not like Mars, you know, it’s got to be completely different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And we’re also responding to the world around us. [At one point during production] Nick and Caitlin, his wife, who’s a cellist, had moved out to L.A., and Nick, do you remember Caitlin took up this hobby of birdwatching?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell: \u003c/strong>She’s still doing it. She’s an avid birder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins:\u003c/strong> She had all these feeders around, so there were these hummingbirds always around the studio. And I was thinking the other day, Nick, about the track “Fireflies.” And there’s a harp that’s played really fast, and to me, that’s the hummingbird wings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_13927602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-13927602\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"a crowd of people sits watching classical musicians perform in a dark club-like space with large artworks projected onto the walls and ceiling\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/04/DSC09282-grittani-creative-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">‘SoundBox: Modern Sanctuary,’ conducted by Edwin Outwater in February 2020. \u003ccite>(Mike Grittani/Grittani Creative)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What do you want people to know going into these SoundBox shows?\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nicholas Britell:\u003c/strong> These performances are something Barry and I have never really done. While we’ve played \u003cem>Moonlight\u003c/em> live to picture before with orchestras, we have never actually performed in the authentic forms of the film with the original orchestrations. This is something we’ve been talking about since these were first written — like, how could we do this? \u003cem>Can\u003c/em> we do this? Because, for example, \u003cem>Beale Street\u003c/em> is as much an orchestration exercise, with these different instrument colors, as it is about these very special reverbs at times, where you hear the sounds sort of floating and soaring and swirling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barry Jenkins: \u003c/strong>We have heard stories about the reverb quality of SoundBox and we are hoping to put it through its paces. We’ve heard it’s legit. And the cats that work there are out to prove to us that it’s legit, so we’re pushing the boundaries with this concert.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ll also say — I moved to the Bay at a time in my life when I was incredibly down on myself, and I went through some ups and downs there. And I’d walk past the Symphony all the time, and I just never thought … There are going to be images of Black folks projected all throughout this show. These folks are going to be playing music that I think organically reflects the experience of Black people. And I just never, never thought there was a world in which that would ever happen. It’s gonna be very cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-12127869\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"78\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-400x39.jpg 400w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/09/Q.Logo_.Break_-768x75.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>‘SoundBox: In Conversation With Nicholas Britell and Barry Jenkins’ takes place at 9 p.m. on Friday, April 14 and Saturday, April 15 at the San Francisco Symphony’s SoundBox (300 Franklin St., San Francisco). Tickets start at $99; \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfsymphony.org/Buy-Tickets/2022-23/SBX-NicholasBritell\">details here\u003c/a>.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/arts/13927554/barry-jenkins-nicholas-britell-interview-soundbox-san-francisco-symphony","authors":["7237"],"programs":["arts_140"],"categories":["arts_1","arts_835","arts_74","arts_69"],"tags":["arts_928","arts_15393","arts_1312","arts_10278","arts_977","arts_1050","arts_3087","arts_989","arts_1367","arts_8904","arts_585"],"featImg":"arts_13927583","label":"arts_140"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. 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Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />","airtime":"SUN 9pm-10pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/CodeSwitchLifeKit_StationGraphics_300x300EmailGraphic.png","meta":{"site":"radio","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/code-switch-life-kit","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/1112190608?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/3bExJ9JQpkwNhoHvaIIuyV","rss":"https://feeds.npr.org/510312/podcast.xml"}},"commonwealth-club":{"id":"commonwealth-club","title":"Commonwealth Club of California Podcast","info":"The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. 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