Daniel Ellsberg, the Big Daddy of all government whistleblowers, defended NSA leaker Edward Snowden in an interview with “This Week in Northern California” host Dana King on Friday. Ellsberg lives in Kensington and has been a frequent presence in the Bay Area talking about the need for government transparency as it relates to national security.

Ellsberg, as you might imagine, said Snowden did a “great benefit to this country.”

“It’s very hard to imagine a democracy surviving long with the government having that kind of ability to blackmail any given person,” he said.

Ellsberg called the National Security Agency programs, which indiscriminately gather data related to the telecommunications and Internet habits of millions of U.S. citizens, an impeachable offense under both  presidents Bush and Obama. He also said he was dismayed by how many Democrats have switched from opposing the programs under Bush to supporting expanded versions under Obama. “I’m speaking of Sen. Feinstein here, very specifically,” he said.

Feinstein, who is chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has been an outspoken defender of the programs since the news of their existence broke. Last week she pointed to two specific terrorist plots that she said the programs helped foil, including the planned bombing of the New York City subway system in 2009. NSA officials said this weekend, anonymously, those are just the tip of the iceberg. President Obama has also defended the NSA activity, as have those of a decidedly different political persuasion, like Dick Cheney, who called Snowden a traitor.

In other news on this story today, Apple said that over the last six months it received between 4,000-5,000 requests for customer data related to all law enforcement investigations, though it did not break out how many came from the NSA.

Snowden, who has taken refuge in Hong Kong, did an online chat with Guardian blogger Glenn Greenwald, who broke the story. Here’s the complete AP write-up on that…

WASHINGTON (AP) — NSA leaker Edward Snowden is defending his disclosure of top-secret U.S. spying programs in an online chat Monday with The Guardian and is attacking U.S. officials for calling him a traitor.

“The U.S. government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me,” he said. He added the government “immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home,” by labeling him a traitor, and indicated he would not return to the U.S. voluntarily.

Congressional leaders have called Snowden a traitor for revealing once-secret surveillance programs two weeks ago in the Guardian and The Washington Post. The National Security Agency programs collect records of millions of Americans’ telephone calls and Internet usage as a counterterror tool. The disclosures revealed the scope of the collections, which surprised many Americans and have sparked debate about how much privacy the government can take away in the name of national security.

“It would be foolish to volunteer yourself to” possible arrest and criminal charges “if you can do more good outside of prison than in it,” he said.

In one posted reply to a question, Snowden dismissed being called a traitor by former Vice President Dick Cheney, who made the allegations in an interview this week on Fox News Sunday. Cheney was echoing a charge by Senate Intelligence Committee chair Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.,

“Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American, and the more panicked talk we hear from people like him, Feinstein … the better off we all are,” he said. “This is a man who gave us the warrantless wiretapping scheme as a kind of atrocity warm-up on the way to deceitfully engineering a conflict that has killed over 4,400 and maimed nearly 32,000 Americans, as well as leaving over 100,000 Iraqis dead,” he added, referring to the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

The Guardian announced that its website was hosting an online chat with Snowden, in hiding in Hong Kong, with reporter Glenn Greenwald receiving and posting his questions. The Associated Press couldn’t independently verify that Snowden was the man who posted 19 replies to questions.

In answer to a question about charges made by Cheney and other U.S. officials that he might be spying for China, and trading information for asylum, Snowden wrote, “Ask yourself: if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn’t I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now.”

He added later, “I have had no contact with the Chinese government.”

Snowden explained that he had not flown directly to Iceland, where he has said he would like to seek asylum, because of the restrictions on travel for U.S. government employees with top clearances that require permission 30 days in advance, making Hong Kong the more accessible option.

Snowden dismissed the U.S. government’s claims that the NSA surveillance programs had helped thwart dozens of terrorist attacks in more than 20 countries, including the 2009 al-Qaida plot by Afghan American Najibullah Zazi to blow up New York subways.

“Journalists should ask a specific question: … how many terrorist attacks were prevented SOLELY by information derived from this suspicionless surveillance that could not be gained via any other source? Then ask how many individual communications were ingested to acheive (sic) that, and ask yourself if it was worth it.”

He added that “Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we’ve been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it.”

Snowden was working as a contractor for NSA at the time he had access to the then-secret programs. He defended his actions and said he considered what to reveal and what not to, saying he did not reveal any U.S. operations against what he called legitimate military targets, but instead showed that the NSA is hacking civilian infrastructure like universities and private businesses.

“These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash,” he said, though he gave no examples of what systems have crashed or in which countries.

“Congress hasn’t declared war on the countries — the majority of them are our allies — but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people,” he said. “And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we’re not even fighting?”

Snowden was referring to Prism, one of the programs he disclosed. The program sweeps up Internet usage data from all over the world that goes through nine major U.S.-based Internet providers. The NSA can look at foreign usage without any warrants, and says the program doesn’t target Americans.

U.S. officials say the data-gathering programs are legal and operated under secret court supervision.

Snowden explained his claim that from his desk, he could “wiretap” any phone call or email — a claim top intelligence officials have denied. “If an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc. analyst has access to query raw SIGINT (signals intelligence) databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want,” he wrote in the answer posted on the Guardian site. “Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on — it’s all the same.”

The NSA did not immediately respond to an email seeking comment. But Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has said that the kind of data that can be accessed and who can access it are severely limited.

Snowden said the restrictions on what could be seen by an individual analyst vary according to policy changes, which can happen “at any time,” and said that a technical “filter” on NSA data-gathering meant to filter out U.S. communications is “weak,” such that U.S. communications often get ingested.

The former contractor also added that NSA provides Congress “with a special immunity to its surveillance,” without explaining further.

Snowden defended U.S. Army Pfc. Bradley Manning for his disclosures of documents to Wikileaks, which he called a “legitimate journalistic outlet,” which “carefully redacted all of their releases in accordance with a judgment of public interest.” He said the Wikileaks release of unredacted material was “due to the failure of a partner journalist to control a passphrase,” which led to the charge against Manning that he dumped the documents, which Snowden called an attempt to smear Manning.

Manning is currently on trial at Fort Meade — the same Army base where the NSA is headquartered — on charges of aiding the enemy for releasing documents to Wikileaks.

Snowden defended his description of his salary as being $200,000 a year, calling that a “career high,” but saying he did take a pay cut to take the job at Booz Allen Hamilton, where he worked as a contractor at an NSA facility in Hawaii. When Booz Allen fired him, they said his salary was $122,000.

In one of his final replies, Snowden attacked the “mainstream media” for its coverage, saying it “now seems far more interested in what I said when I was 17 or what my girlfriend looks like rather than, say, the largest program of suspicion-less surveillance in human history.”

  • Dwight Neller

    Ellsberg is a saint. We should listen very closely to this person who has sacrificed himself and lived to tell the tail in the “cult of ruthlessness” we have replaced our country with.


Jon Brooks

Jon Brooks is the host and editor for KQED's daily health and technology blog, Future of You. He is the former editor of KQED News Fix.

Sponsored by

Become a KQED sponsor