(ROBYN BECK/AFP/GettyImages)

Every year the U.S. government issues up to 85,000 H-1B visas to businesses that want to hire highly skilled, temporary workers from foreign countries. Many of these workers end up in Silicon Valley’s tech industry. The positions are coveted, but visa holders often live in uncertainty; if their job is eliminated, deportation may quickly follow. As part of KQED’s Boomtown series, examining the Bay Area’s surging economy, we talk with a panel of foreign workers about living and working with an H-1B.

Guests:
Dora Csurgai, her husband has been on an H-1B visa since 2012; she is on an H-4 visa, for dependents of H-1B holders
Megha, market research analyst and H-1B holder since 2011
Di Hu, electrical engineer and H-1B visa holder since 2010
Arun Kumar, test engineer for a consumer electronics company and H-1B holder for eight years

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  • jakeleone

    What are the guest’s thoughts about the displacement of fully qualified, highly skilled, U.S. IT and STEM workers at numerous companies by H-1b workers? At companies such as Harley Davidson, Pfizer, Molina healthcare, to name just a very few, and most recently at Southern California Edison?

    And what are your guest’s thoughts about the incredibly low Green Card sponsoreship rate of Offshore Outsourcing companies, such as InfoSys and Tata? These two companies take up tens-of-thousands of H-1b visas each year, but sponsor only a handful of people for Green Cards.

    Shouldn’t we be giving H-1b visas only to companies that originate tech, instead of just copy it and move the processes and jobs overseas? And to companies that intend to create citizens not indentured servants?

    • jakeleone

      You know Arun said that the companies I mentioned are probably not doing very well.

      Pfizer has been making a profit of around 10 billion a year for the last 20 years. Harley is very profitable. Southern California Edison is profitable. These companies are stable, long term companies. The main reason they are forcing people to train their H-1b replacement is to increase profits.

      We know that Southern California Edison is a very profitable company, again from publicy available data.

      And we also know this from the publicly available LCA data:

      The workers at Southern California Edison were making around a 100k
      average. There are being replaced by workers making 50k a year. And
      that is a cold-hard publicly available fact.

      Unfortunately CEO’s don’t get that CEO bonus unless profits increase. CEO’s have discovered that they can bring in H-1b workers, at about half the price of an American worker. That’s the reason why they are using the H-1b against the spirit of the law, and can say “We are following the law.”. Because the spirit of the law is not the law. And H-1b has no worker protection what-so-ever. Any company, can at anytime, replace a worker with a worker on an H-1b.

      Even if the H-1b worker is making just 10% less than the person that trains them. The sponsoring company will easily recoup the 5-10k that it actually costs to sponsor a person for an H-1b visa. Because that savings will occur over a 6-year period.

      But in most cases the companies will actually reap a huge profit from the H-1b worker. If an H-1b worker is making 90k and replaces a worker making 100k, then the company will make a huge profit of 50k on that cheaper worker. That is just conservative example. In most cases the profit increase is quite large. For example in the Southern California Edison case we are talking about 300,000$ (or more) saved over the six year course of the H-1b visa.

      And that is the reason why Pfizer, Harley and thousands of other companies choose to replace better qualified workers, with workers on an H-1b visa that are making substantially less, sometimes only half as much. Despite the fact that these companies are already, massively profitable.

      As for studies show that in some cases H-1b workers make more than their citizen counter-parts. These studies are skewed by a few exceptional cases. And they don’t give a sense horrendous misuse that is going on in this Government program.

      We need to focus on the scandoulous mis-use by the Offshore Outsourcing companies, by doing this we can dramatically improve the U.S. economy and give the half of all U.S. STEM graduates that cannot find a job (in a STEM field) a chance to actually land that job (remember what Pfizer did, despite massive profits)).

      And don’t forget, that every H-1b visa taken up by an Offshore Outsourcing company, is one less visa for a domestic tech originating company.

      The problem with H-1b has dramatically affected minority participation in U.S. IT markets. Which has dropped to a tiny fraction of the minority IT graduation rate. The reality is there is no shortage of STEM workers, and that many STEM workers simply go to waste.

      But it is clear that there is a shortage of companies that are willing to pay a living wage to STEM workers. And we can see this in numerous cases, well documented, that tech leaders at some of the most profitable companies in history, are unwilling to put up with even a 10% raise in the cost of STEM labor. That 10% raise is needed by the housing market forces in Silicon Valley but tech leaders don’t want to face it (remember they need that CEO bonus).

      For the most part, the panel that was presented was the exception, and not the most common case of how the H-1b visa is used. They seem like good people, but they unfortunately have little awareness of the big-picture on what the H-1b is actually doing to the U.S economy.

      We need to face the reality of how H-1b is used. The H-1b is mostly used by Offshore Outsourcing companies hence the following is also true:

      – The H-1b visa mostly destroys jobs in the United States.
      – Most (like 90+%) of the people coming in on an H-1b will never get a Green Card and pursue citizenship.
      – Any increase in the number of H-1b visas will simply be taken up by Offshore Outsourcing companies, increasing the rate of job destruction, and likely expanding to other industries.
      – Most H-1b visas are used to bring in a person for advanced on the job training, provided by the person that they are replacing.

      We can’t fix this program if we turn a blind eye to how the program is actually used.

      Let’s all agree to face up, and talk about how the H-1b program is actually being used.

  • Bob Fry

    “temporary worker”

    Few actually work temporarily and then return home. It’s massively abused, even in State Government where I work, and just another scam to lower wages for business.

  • Jay

    I originally came to the US as a graduate student 12 yrs ago, got recruited by Fortune 100 company. I am still on my H1B with no possibility of Green Card in sight due to backlogs. In 12 yrs My wife and I bought a home, started a family here in the Bay Area. After all these years, the reality is we are still hanging by a thread in this whole immigration mess.

    Having followed all the process, waiting in lines at many US consulates and having to go through the same visa/green card process multiple times at couple of different companies, permanent residency is nowhere in sight. We are also being held hostage by the politics of illegal immigration. I think we are at the fair end of it, perhaps time to leave.

    Don’t get me wrong there are a ton of outsourcing companies which abuse the H1B and green card process and writing to senator and congress didn’t yield much of a response.

    • The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa. You knew that when you got one. The vast majority of H-1B recipients are never sponsored for a green card. If you made plans based on a dream that never materialized, the fault is yours.
      Don’t let the door hit you on the way out…

      • Jay

        Agreed. While H1-B is non-immigrant visa, it is also dual intent
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent
        Unfortunately, yes unfortunately…the American company I work for wanted me to stay and applied for a Green Card.
        From what I see, with globalization I could still make the same amount of money and get an even better career growth, working for the same company in any other country including my home country. So as noted earlier, its time to leave and give America its necessary freedom.

        • Alice Blue

          We’ll help you carry your bags to the taxi. Heck, we’ll drive you to the airport for free. Bon voyage.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            come on, why don’t u just say the freaking “go back to China!” already ? this kind of rhetoric is so boring. don’t u know that every Foreign-looking person has been yelled at with that for at least 1000 times in his life? can’t u come up with something more interesting?

      • Curious

        I assume you say the same or worse to the millions of illegals flooding across the border?

        • Alice Blue

          Yes.

  • EIDALM

    The H-B1 visa is a total betrayal of the American people imposed upon us by the Wall Street and multinational corporations to increase their profits by replacing highly talented American technical workers and scientists by bring people from other countries who are paid much less ,my own experience as a professor at National university in San Jose since the 1980’s I saw many of my students many of them had held highly paid jobs in Silicon valley got fired and were replaced by people from East India ,and soon enough the cities of Santa Clara and Sunnyvale became an East Indian colony…Again this is part of the war by the Wall Street and the multinational corporations against the American people ,as an example the fraud argument by Bill Gate that this bring talent from overseas to America is not true because most of these foreign people got their education in American universities…It all follows NAFTA ,GAT, KAFTA ,and now TPP they all made to enrich the Wall Street and multinational corporations while destroying the American middle class and sending tens of millions of Americans to the poorhouse.

  • Lance

    H1B Visas have been abused against the spirit of the program. The most recent being drama with Southern California Edison. Hiring to undercut the qualified local workforce, is the race to the bottom in both pay and skill.

    The people approved for these visas are put in a situation that lowers workers rights across the board. Their own rights as foreign workers, and the local population the program is abusing..

  • Fay Nissenbaum

    Have any of your guests considered paying to enter a “marriage of convenience”? Do they know anyone who has? I know one tech worker who did so…

  • Kurt thialfad

    There is not a 85,000 annual cap on H1-B visas. For educational and research institutes, there is no limit. UCSF, Harvard, Brookhaven, Woods Hole, Scandia Labs, Rockefeller University, etc. hire all the foreign workers they want. Tech companies, pharmecuitical companies, etc, run many projects through such sham entities. So the number is much higher than 85,000 annually.

    • Glob Design

      According to 2008 DHS Flow Report, over 800,000 came in on H-1B alone. That is not counting L-1 which HAS NO LIMIT. We’re talking MILLIONS per year – and every one of them “loot and remit” Indians sucking the US econ dry.

      • jurgispilis

        We should tax foreign remittances.

  • Robert Thomas

    I worked for nine years of the 1980s for ELXSI (pronounced like “L•X•C”; “Electricity & Silicon”), a mini-supercomputer-class manufacturer in San Jose, that subsequently morphed into Tata Elxsi, as Tata had been a major investor in the concern which had been founded by Joe Rizzi of Intersil. The number of H-1B workers there in those days was formidable and ELXSI worked hard to promote its employees to permanent resident status and also to naturalization for those with that goal.

    Do the guests believe that the general profile of employers in our industry is more or less hospitable toward visa holders in this way now than it was then?

  • jurgispilis

    If an American and a H1-B visa holder are candidates for the same job and have equal qualifications, the American need not be given preference. This was eliminated by AC21, thanks to Dianne Feinstein and Ted Kennedy.

    Also, there used be a 6 year max. No longer.

    Another point should be made here, only an American citizen is protected from deportation. Even a green cardholder, a possessor of an immigrant visa. All these categories of persons, can be stopped and turned back, denied entry. If I have a DUI, I cannot enter Canada. Countries can and do make their own rules on nationals from other countries.

  • AD

    @ H1-B hurting domestic jobs.

    I am a H1-B holder. The amount of paperwork and legal fee that my employer has to go through to get and retain my H1-B, is tremendously high. Financially and HR resource wise too.
    When it comes to compensation, there are so many regulations, that ironically, a H1-B holder in some sense can be comfortable knowing that they are not underpaid in the organization. The cost for an employer of pulling a fast-one on a H1-B employer is high that no sane employer will do this. High penalty and fee, not to mention a bad name in the H1-B community.

    If an employer inspite of all this is willing to go through with an H1-B employer, I can only imagine a shortage of talent.

  • Whamadoodle

    The story of the detestable creeps who scammed the lady is just one of a million such stories experienced by immigrants and would-be immigrants to the developed world. People are constantly having violence done to them, being ripped off, and becoming indentured servants in sweatshops, for no other reason than that they were unlucky in choosing their birthplace, and the lucky ones are arrogant enough to insist on making a gated community of the developed world.

    It’s always pretended that there’s something objectionable about the unlucky people in this equation, but the truth is that this system of exclusion is just cruelty, that’s all. Just cruelty. The ideas that “they’ll take all our jobs” or “our tax money will pay for immigrants” ignores the plain fact that when they’re allowed to come legally, with less restrictions (provided they’re not criminal), they PAY tax money, and CREATE jobs as entrepreneurs. Rationalization of our gated-community system rationalizes cruelty.

  • Guest

    Does the thought of returning to India cross anyone’s mind? I’ve read that this is a new trend but I have no idea how prevelant the desire is…

  • Fay Nissenbaum

    Does the thought of returning to India cross anyone’s mind? Evidently, the standard of living for techies in India is quite high. I’ve read that this is a new trend but I have no idea how prevelant the desire is…

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      it’s actually a very strong alternative for Chinese IT engineers, the powerful new IT companies there (Alibaba etc) give compensations comparable on absolute dollar values to those here.

  • Ram Raju

    Welcome to capitalism, an idea promoted by the western world across the whole globe (even in these times). And if i remember correctly these economies have been created due to free flow of capital goods and resources (including people) for centuries. Sometimes it works and sometimes it hurts. We cant complain when it hurts and enjoy the fruits when it does not.

    Even though i agree that sometimes it hurts when we see family members who are american suffer job loss or joblessness due to some one else from another country keep/take the job. I truly believe that companies recruit talent based on who can perform the job for the skill it needs, and probably also agree that they end up paying lesser than an american worker. But at all times they do make sure that the product they are building does not hurt.

  • Steve

    A major point that has not been emphasized enough: According to the Boston Globe, in 2012, 20% of H1-B visas went to just 4 firms, 3 of which are Indian outsourcing firms, with the fourth being an American/Indian partnership. Other tech companies then hire these outsourcing firms to do the work at lower cost than if they had hired employees. For the full story: http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/03/30/visa-program-has-been-hijacked-outsourcers/VAg6o9KgS2tuoZ3WbmaqeK/story.html

  • Robert Thomas

    “What a terrible thing to have drained one’s brain. Or not to have a brain at all. How true that is.”

    -Dan Quayle
    [paraphrase]

  • TimDoyle

    This is simply global capitalism as it applies to labor. Apple, Google, Starbucks et al…..are all vultures practicing Vulture-Venture Capitalism. Tom Perkins is not a “Philanthropist”.

  • AD

    @ Legal immigration for H1-B workers.

    The process is so arcane and buried in bureaucratic processes. It does not factor the H1-B workers’ work history, talent, or time spent in the country. Its a file-and-stand-in-line system. In typical occasions, the time to prepare this filing and get the “token” in the line is atleast 2 years (PERM application preparation and filing). If selected for a “random” audit, this same process can take upto 3+ years.

    If at the end, the paperwork has an error (paralegal made mistakes), an application can be rejected and the process needs to restart all over again.

    The system ought to be more predictable. As a H1-B visa holder myself, I dont think many of us care to get a green-card as a goal. But we care for and need a predictable system to ensure stability in our future. Green-card is a means, once the 6+ years of H1-B temporary work visa end.

  • Anu

    It’s unreasonably tough for people who come to the US legally, as it should be. The question is why do illegal immigrants, who don’t have paperwork or don’t pay taxes, get everyone’s sympathy and a path to citizenship? Case in point Jose Vargas.

    • Ramon

      your premise that undocumented workers don’t pay taxes is untrue. They are here for the same reason that H-1b visa people…because businesses benefit from this. If you provide some legal way for this people to come here, you would have no undocumented workers. Who in their right mind would want to risk their lives to come here if a legal path was available.

      • Anu

        I agree… some of them do pay taxes and life as an illegal immigrant is incredibly tough. The point is the law was broken, but we never hear that point. Sometimes you think, I have followed the law all along, what benefit am I getting? No medicare, no social security in spite of paying those taxes all your life!

      • So, if we severely punish those business that make living illegally in America profitable, we will rid ourselves of the illegal population!
        Great idea, Ramon!

        • Lance

          The solution would be to not have borked trade deals and subsidies that train wreck foreign economies. Which in turn makes jumping our border a life or death choice once things get seriously bad in their country.

          Which for California, is how NAFTA + subsidies wrecked the economy of a mostly agrarian work force south of our border.

          • jurgispilis

            You notice how NAFTA was passed by a simple majority of Congress, not the 2/3rd of the Senate as required by the Constitution of all treaties. Clinton has to invent this “fast track” concept in order to bypass this stipulation without an constitutional amendment. Thanks, Bill!

          • Ram Raju

            Capitalism is cruel..it does not recognize citizenships or empathy. It only believes in free flow of goods and resources at the cheapest possible price.

            Salary increase makes sense to a point, after that companies will move abroad when it reaches the threshold when doing business in a country gets tougher (also called Business friendliness).

            I wonder what other people views are about benefits US gets from exporting lots of goods (especially high tech defense equipment).

            Don’t forget that goods and resources are just 2 different aspects in capitalism for companies to make money. If goods can travel boundaries so can resources

          • Ramon

            but we as consumers and stock holders have more say that what you might think, we make decisions for these companies every day…if the system is cruel is only because we let it be that way…

          • Lance

            Clinton also helped along deregulation of our esteemed financial institutions. Both parties are knee deep in their own hypocrisies.

          • It is not a life-or-death choice for the vast majority of illegal aliens. Mexico, for instance, has a higher proportion of obese people than the USA. They are not starving.
            They come here because they want iPhones, iPads, and big hulking pickup trucks.
            As to the trade deals: They were agreed to by all countries involved. If the citizens don’t like the results, they can petition their respective governments to withdraw.

          • Lance

            Petitions at the end of a gun barrel tend to end only in mass graves. The most recent example with a bus load of students protesting ended up killed off by their elected representative.

            It’s disingenuous to blanket state people risking their lives to cross the border are motivated by superficial American values.

          • It is the Mexican government’s job to provide for the security of their people.
            If they do not do so, then perhaps it is time for yet another Mexican revolution. One of these times, they will get it right.

          • Whamadoodle

            You… you want to stop the flow of poverty refugees over the border, and your solution is… that they need to have a revolution there?

            Do you know how many new refugees would be created from having a war next door?

            I know that you feel frustration over this issue, but it is important for you to think these things through a little more before speaking about them. Emotional outbursts and ill-thought-out, cavalier prescriptions for “ahh, so they should just have a war” are not intelligent solutions.

          • Whamadoodle

            “They are not starving.”

            http://www.inegi.org.mx/inegi/contenidos/espanol/prensa/Boletines/Boletin/Comunicados/Especiales/2013/junio/comunica6.pdf

            Over 40% of Mexico’s citizens live in moderate or extreme poverty (that’s MEXICO’s definition of “poverty,” which I believe is a much lower wage than America’s).

          • Then, by making it more difficult for Mexicans to settle illegally in our country, we put them in a position where their only recourse is to force the Mexican oligarchy to create better living conditions for the masses or face rebellion.
            Allowing them to come here takes the pressure of Mexico’s government to improve living conditions for its own citizens. We actually make things worse for those who stay behind.

          • Whamadoodle

            You seem to cherish this extremely odd belief that Latin American people have had too easy a time of it, and that they’d be motivated to revolution if only they could suffer more. In addition, you seem to believe that staging a Mexican revolution is as feasible as it was in the 19th century.

            With a 40+% poverty rate, if it were possible to stage a revolution, or if a sufficient pressure cooker of poverty could cause that to happen, it would have happened. It is no longer feasible for ordinary Mexicans to rise up and depose the authorities (who would arm them? Where would they get all the guns necessary?), any more than it is feasible for ordinary Americans to do so, unless factions of those same authorities defect and make it happen.

            Basically: unless some significant portion of the authorities say it’s okay for a revolution to happen, it will not happen. Conditions of misery have already been more than sufficient to bring this about in Mexico, if it were possible.

        • Ramon

          Depends on what you are trying to solve. If it is a real solution what you are after, then what you do is give these people that are already working here a means to do so legally and bring them out of the shadows. You also raise wages for these jobs to a level that the local job pool will want do these jobs. Undocumented and H1B workers are here for the same reasons, to fill jobs and to control wages. If we want real change and solutions that work we need to take off our biases and prejudice and focus on the real issues.

          • But if we allow those currently in the shadows to become legal workers, we set the stage for another wave of illegal immigrants who will hide in the shadows and await the next one-time amnesty.
            Your solution only perpetuates the problem. If we rid ourselves of the illegal population and let the world know by our actions uninvited guests will be unable to thrive in our society, they will stop coming here.
            That is a real solution.

          • Whamadoodle

            “They will stop coming here”

            Laughable! When, oh when, have illegal immigrants EVER stopped coming to any developed country, no matter HOW strict or lax their policies were (with the exception of those that became fascist police states, which enforced their xenophobia with judicial murder and other violence)? Any example of ANY developed country that’s managed to stop illegal immigration?

            Putting picket fences up against the tide is silly. Making every immigrant legal (except those who are actually criminals, as in committing crimes other than undocumented entry) means that the millions who are here, and who keep coming, and will keep coming, will now pay taxes and be able to get bank loans and start their own businesses, and thus contribute in many ways to the economy. As it is now, it only works for those who want slave labor.

          • Whamadoodle

            “They will stop coming here”

            Laughable! When, oh when, have illegal immigrants EVER stopped coming to any developed country, no matter HOW strict or lax their policies were (with the exception of those that became police states, which enforced their xenophobia with judicial murder and other violence)? Any example of ANY developed country that’s managed to stop illegal immigration?

            Putting picket fences up against the tide is silly. Making every immigrant legal (except those who are actually criminals, as in committing crimes other than undocumented entry) means that the millions who are here, and who keep coming, and will keep coming, will now pay taxes and be able to get bank loans and start their own businesses, and thus contribute in many ways to the economy. As it is now, it only works for those who want slave labor.

          • During the Great Recession, many illegal aliens did return to their home countries. This is an undisputed fact.
            Why did they leave? They left because they thought they could get a “better deal” back home.
            Since empirical evidence indicates that most illegal aliens rationally choose a path that nets them greater reward, we only have to make sure that coming here puts them in a worse state than staying home.
            Mandatory e-verify along with mandatory jail sentences for those who knowingly hire illegal aliens will go a long way toward making that happen.

          • Whamadoodle

            What does “many” mean, exactly? How many, precisely, returned, and how many did not leave? How many continued to come during that time?

          • According to DHS, the illegal alien population peaked at 12 million in 2008, then dropped to 11 million in 2009 during the height of the recession. They estimated that Hispanics lost 764,000 construction jobs alone between 2007 and 2010.
            When things here improved here, they started coming back.
            As far as I know, there is no reliable data on whether the ones who came in after the recession are the same ones who left.
            The data do prove, however, that illegal aliens are opportunistic and respond to changes in job availability. If the USA actually made e-verify mandatory, with jail time for offending employers instead of trivial fines, many would leave of their own accord.

          • Whamadoodle

            1 million people, against the 33 million people either from Mexico or of Mexican descent here, is certainly “many,” but it doesn’t solve… whatever problem it is that you have with their presence.

            The portion of our economy that profits by their presence is plainly unwilling to put your plan into effect. Why should they? They profit by it.

            And if an alternative were considered, why would it not be the more sensible alternative? You can’t be so deluded as to think that your “many would leave” would translate into “all 11 million would leave, nice and clean” (though why you find Latinos and that awful “Mexican oligarchy” the only groups worthy of ire, and seem unconcerned about the other hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants from countries like Korea or other Asian nations, I don’t know). Therefore, you’re aware that we will be losing several million people’s tax dollars that we’d get if they were above-the-table and their income could be taxed, not just their purchases, and that this would offset the services that they now use WITHOUT paying income tax for it; and the benefit to the economy from their entrepreneurship, when they can get loans and start businesses above the table as well, which benefits the whole economy. So if those profiting by illegal immigrant labor wanted to make a change, there is economic sense in that change, to amnesty for all.

            What earthly economic sense YOUR plan makes, on the other hand, or why on earth we should adopt it, I don’t know.

          • You are either working with really bad data, or you failed math.
            The cost to the states to educate, incarcerate and otherwise support the illegal alien population is greater than $120 billion per year, while the most generous estimates put their tax contributions, if legalized, at less than $21 billion. The federal government might come out ahead, but the states lose big time.
            Hispanics are the ones who made illegal immigration an Hispanic issue. I personally do not care where the illegals came from, but they need to be made to leave.
            1 million is more than 8% of the total number of illegals. If we can get 1 million per year to leave on their own in the beginning, the effect will snowball as it becomes obvious they have no future here. And that is the only workable long term solution.

          • Whamadoodle

            “Solution” to what? What are the problems that you think immigration causes?

            The data I’m working with were provided by the Economist, a conservative weekly newspaper that’s well-regarded in financial circles. The Economist has repeatedly cited studies showing all the net benefits of immigration on developed host countries (note that, like the US, Europe and England have massive, millions-strong immigration, legal and illegal, from impoverished countries in their neighborhood):

            http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

            1. Do you have any data that refute articles such as these?
            2. Also, please cite your source for the $120 bn/$21 bn numbers you claim.

  • novictim

    Senate Immigration Bill:

    The cap on the H-1B visa program for high-skilled workers would be immediately raised from 65,000 a year to **110,000 a year**

    This is how you bust down the middle-class and enrich the 0.1%ers.

    • Tyagi

      FYI until 2004 this limit was 195,000 but the limit came down because congress was supposed to renew some regulation which didn’t happen. So please dont say that middle class will be busted with 110K in 2015 vs 195K in 2004

      • Alice Blue

        And when the limit was 195,000, it was almost impossible for American IT people to find jobs to apply for, and when they did find one or two, there would be literally hundreds of applicants. We couldn’t buy an interview in our own country, but the H-1Bs were here living large.

        • Glob Design

          Clinton did this to us in 1998 and 2001 when the caps were raised to 115,000 and 195,000 respectively. That caused the 2001, 2003, and 2008 crashes. Now they want to do it again.

          Globalists use the 3rd world “loot and remit” losers to wreck America’s economy any time it booms.

          If you’re an American making a good IT salary, YOU DON’T NEED A BANK LOAN NOW DO YOU?

    • Glob Design

      And how you make sure the people have to keep going to the banks for LOANS.

    • MOnkinSF

      Compared to 4 to 5 million illegal immigrants, 0.11 million H1B is nothing.

      • novictim

        Wrong.

        That is not an argument against stopping further immigration. The depressing effect on wages at all levels of education status is quite real and is the key reason for why business/corporations promulgate the “open door” for all immigrants.

  • joyceck

    As a 25 year veteran of silicon valley I held every job from entry level programming to Chief Technical Officer. We cannot continue with this H1B policy. too many Americans are being barred from employment in STEM / IT industries. There are 1.5 billion people in India take the top 1% of smart people that’s 150,000,000 people half the population of the US that’s not a viable policy decision. Companies in the valley have been fined for not hiring each others personnel because there have been no raises for 5-10 years. With a 6 year H1B visa companies can hold onto these people without raises or any risk of losing them to other companies. The millennial generation of which I have two sons are not getting jobs, that is a fact. One has committed suicide over this. There is no training or career path any longer in this industry because it has become a plug and play mentality when it comes to engineer.

    • Chris OConnell

      Math correction: 1% of 1.5 billion is 15,000,000. But the point still stands.

      • MOnkinSF

        OK. Joy must be a good engineer.

    • AD

      I am extremely sorry for your loss.

      @ Training and education in STEM:
      Yes, this needs a huge push to create these jobs domestically. Until then H1-B program is helping to create a bridge by retain US as the top high-technology leader in the world. A walk across any US University will show you the demographics and nationalities of STEM students. So there is a problem to be fixed, but I do not see how the H1-B program is to blame ? A walk down in a career fair will show you how companies are flocking to pick up STEM graduates. Why would they pay for all the high $$$ fee for legal immigration and scrutiny if they can get domestic talent ?
      Perhaps the nation needs to look, encourage and invest into STEM in its education system.

      @ Domestic jobs :
      I dont know which part of silicon valley you are talking about. But put a job posting and see the ratio of suitable resumes for the job you get from domestic nationals v/s foreign citizens. I cannot imagine why a company could pick a non-citizen.
      The argument for low wage is bogus. There is regulation to ensure pay for foreign worker way more than anything for citizen.
      The argument for hard-work is counter productive. But foreign workers know their rights, and there is a fine line between hard work and being made to work beyond ones will.

      • joyceck

        Sorry folks your comments just don’t fly with reality. There are plenty of intelligent qualified candidates applying for IT/STEM jobs from US universities. I have seen the resumes for 25 years come across my desk as a hiring manager and having started up 3 software companies. The larger IT companies write a job description that no one could satisfy because they only need to say that they couldn’t find a US worker to fit it. They don’t need to show that the foreign worker DID have the qualifications. They can keep the H1B or J worker for up to 6 years without a raise or promotion. The reason there are fewer US citizens going into STEM/IT paths is that they don’t want to graduate with no job prospects and with a huge debt. There is no pay regulation in IT exempt jobs. Don’t know where you get that bogus information. There is no high fee for getting an H1B worker. I have walked through several engineering departments and saw whole groups where the manager and all the engineers were foreign workers. I started a company that had 10 IT workers in Silicon Valley and 20 developers in Bangalore. Two of my partners were from South India. They were US citizens. There are ways to provide opportunities without shutting out US workers.

        • Tyagi

          Here is the wage regulation AD is talking about http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/wages-foreign-workers.htm

          And if you had a chance to listen to today’s program the host quoted “H1 workers earn 26% more than their American counterparts”. Employer doesn’t have to give a raise for 6 years?.. I haven’t met a single person who can say that.. and H1 while restrictive certainly allows you to look for another opportunity its not that you are married to one employer.. H1 workers do get raises.

          • joyceck

            H1 workers earn 26% more than their American counterparts”.??? Says who? – There are no laws requiring raises for exempt workers. In the same program WHICH I DID LISTEN TO!!! a caller said they hadn’t seen a raise in many years and the salary plan for companies I have worked for did not call for raises in the past 10 years. Can you find a single case of investigation by DOL of the wage practices or compliance of IT companies? Never happens.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            unfortunately this caller is a living proof that media can never be “objective”. single instances can be easily presented to the forefront to create the perception that they are representative, thus promoting the agenda of the media. I have seen my fair share of those H1B workers without US degrees, or with degrees from some diploma mills , lifted right out of Bangalore offices to here, those people oftentimes perform badly and normally rightfully remain at the lowest level of org.

            it’s just so wrong to say that most H1B workers are kept at low wages institutionally: one of the few SVPs of Google, Pichai; CEO of MSFT; Qi Lu, head of one of the few divisions of MSFT; oh don’t forget Elon Musk!! all these people were on a H1B at some time. they did get their promotions to the top, right? statistically if u just go on linkedIn and look at the profiles, quite a large portion of senior engineers or managers in the tech industry come from abroad, had their graduate education in here, and went through the H1B (painful ) years. they were not sweatshop slaves —– as long as they worked in the reputable large companies.

            I did hear about shady shops creating shell companies solely for the purpose of H1B fraud, those should definitely be wiped out and prosecuted.

            again, using a broad “H1B” hat trying to cover everything is naiive and logically confusing

          • John80224

            Brookings Institution…just like they were paid to say.

          • marte48

            Libertarian think tanks like CATO, Brookings, AEI, etc, will always side with multi-national corporations.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_libertarian_organizations

          • saasadm

            Non-sense! This is a total corporate propaganda. In Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren’s district in San Jose, according to the Congressional report that was done a couple of years ago, the average salary of an H-1B is about $40,000 below the average salary of an American citizen in a similar engineering position.

            Earlier this year, a high-tech company in Fremont is fined by the Department of Labor for importing Indian workers and paying them $1.23 an hour and forcing them to work unpaid over time as much as 125 hours. This story has been published by the Los Angeles Times, Reuters, etc. (just google it and find it for yourself)

            It’s time for American IT workers to stand up to the abuse of the H-1B program. You can read more at my website.

            http://www.phatforcongress.us/issues/downtown-abbey

          • marte48

            Apples and oranges. They were comparing Indians working here vs Indians working in India. And personal anecdotes only prove that employers do want they want to do.

          • John80224

            There are regulations against murder and rape yet they happen as well–even though enforcement of those regulations is far more aggressive than immigration labor law.

            As to your quote, you simply don’t understand statistics or else you don’t want to understand that one. The Brookings Institution statement your quote derives from compares “computer occupations” across the US. High-cost areas like Silicon Valley where H-1Bs are used for higher end computer roles like software engineering are compared to low H-1B-reliant areas and disciplines like help desk technician in Des Moines. The study most likely found what it was funded to “prove” in the first place.

        • asdfasdfasdfasfd

          Joyceck: you are essentially saying there is institutional discrimination *against* native job seekers in the IT field. This can’t be further from the truth, and in fact doesn’t make sense at all: to hire a H1B holder the company has to go through lots of hassles to apply for his H1B, incurring legal costs. I have managed countless hiring decisions in my past 10 years of tenure in multiple large tech companies, as long as two people come out of the same good grad school, and have great GPAs, they are judged the same no matter whether his face is white or black or blue.

          H1B paycheck is artificially held low?? that’s kind of a weird argument. such ACTUAL wage data is publicly available by law on dol website, and we can see that it’s way higher than average wages among all industries even in the bay area. it’s kind of funny the income of foreign IT engineers are often used as (fallible) proof in completely conflicting arguments: just yesterday on the “google campus expansion” topic some native lady complained that H1B workers (“people from all around the world” in her language) make way too much, and today someone says H1B make too little so they drag down the wage of local workers ……. what can I say,,, they are always the scapegoats , no ?? 🙂

          if native labor force want the higher income associated with the booming tech industry, you really have to get into the competition mindset, starting from STEM education.

          • jakeleone

            There actually seems to be institutional discrimination against Native job seekers.

            A case against InfoSys (the #1 user of H-1b visas), points this out this possibility very clearly (from publicly available U.S. court documents):

            An InfoSys recruiter provided an InfoSys hiring manager the resumes of several qualified U.S. Engineers. The hiring manager said that “American don’t know (profane expletive)!” and refused to consider the resumes.

            When the recruiter asked for clarification (in the same meeting) from an InfoSys Vice President. The recruiter was told to only consider resumes of people of “South Asian” nationality for jobs on U.S. soil.

            We have seen numerous cases of this, and you can easily look it up. H-1b is a government program that is being used to monopolize the U.S. IT/STEM workforce into the hands of a few “South Asian” oligarchical companies.

            Again, don’t take my word for it, just look it up. Google for ComputerWorld and Patrick Thibodeau.

          • Alice Blue

            There is systematic and deep-seated discrimination against American IT workers in America. Foreign workers are brought in via body shops like Infosys, and it is these companies who get the lion’s share of visas, not talent-needy American companies.

            Having worked as both a contractor and a full-time hire, contractors are not subject to the extensive screening process that direct hires are. And representatives from the foreign staffing vendors have admitted to “spicing” the resumes of their hires to ensure they look good compared to natives. More than one American IT professional I have known has been involved in such hiring, and was shocked to discover his resume – with a foreign name slapped on.

            The entire prevalence of foreign IT workers seen in American companies is due to a major PR campaign by NASSCOM and the government of India, whose objective it was to solve their unemployment problem by unseating and beggaring American IT pros.

            Anerica has always produced more native citizen STEM grads than it generates jobs for. What is the difference between a foreign STEM grad and an American STEM grad? The foreign grad is hand-carried into a plum American job, whereas the American grad has to move home and wait tables.

            And don’t even get me started on the preferential recruitement of foreign students by American universities. Not because they are better students, but because they pay full freight and don’t get financial aid. As a result, qualified American students are being denied seats, even in taxpayer-funded American universities, even in land grant schools. Look it up.

          • Kurt thialfad

            “No Yankees need apply”.

          • marte48

            again, it’s demographics. 1% of a billion people will produce X% of “A” students. Competition is driven by supply. If they opened H1B visas for artists, we would all be out of jobs.

        • AD

          Lets break these down:

          “They don’t need to show that the foreign worker DID have the qualifications”

          – The LCA application required for H1-B vets the compensation for foreign workers. The H1-B Visa application and for that matter the H1-B visa interview need to carry all of the documents to show offer letter and qualification. On the other hand, a foreign worker can be hired for anything beyond minimum wage.

          “They can keep the H1B or J worker for up to 6 years without a raise or promotion”

          – False. Maybe for 3 years. After 3 year, the H1-B renewal requires the fresh LCA and vets the compensation again. Infact I missing the argument here. If the employee is neither getting a raise, nor a promotion and is deserving, then the victim here is the employee. Any deserving employee can go outside and find a more rewarding employer.

          “There is no pay regulation in IT exempt jobs”

          You are right on this for American citizens. But for H1-B workers the LCA requires paying minimum wage published by labor dept. for that high skilled job. So on the contrary, the foreign worker here, HAS to be paid a certain minimum, which means as an employer there is more incentive to NOT hire, if we are looking at such employers. So I am finding it hard to follow your argument.

          “There is no high fee for getting an H1B worker”

          The fee to prepare and file a H1-B application via an immigration lawyer is $$$. If you find a cheaper lawyer, please share, my company can save some costs. USCIS fee itself are pretty high ranging from 1000 USD to 2500 USD. Add layer fee on top of this. Not to mention cost for HR resources for driving all the processes. The H1-B visa stamp itself is 200$ . This is PER employee on H1-B.

          Congratulations on your starting a company and thank you for creating employment in India. Much appreciated.

      • MOnkinSF

        Fix the education system first. The average scores 8th grader from Singapore, Japan, South Korea are all above that from the US. That is a fact.

      • Kurt thialfad

        there is larger pool of foreign workers vs. domestic workers, so naturally you would find more qualified workers in this larger pool. Do the math.

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      Joyceck I sympathize with your experience. but you also pointed out yourself that there are just too many “smart people” in India and around the world. if you acknowledge that we are in a free market economy, the only way to face this is to be brave and compete fairly with these smart people.

      • Skip Conrad

        It’s a rigged economy.

      • jakeleone

        Yes it is about as free market as a slave market is.

      • marte48

        It’s not a “free market economy” when the game is rigged.

    • econdataus

      Joyceck is right. You can’t compete against indentured servants. Our H-1B policy is largely driven by money. It has wide support from politicians of both parties who receive far larger contributions from the corporations who support it. Those corporations support the policy because they get workers who are tied to the company and are much easier to exploit. Those corporations also fund hack studies that purport to show that these workers create jobs and raise wages. Everyone wins! I’ve analyzed one of the major studies at http://econdataus.com/amjobs.htm that has been written about by Norm Matloff and Science Careers magazine. If you google the name of the study, “Immigration and American Jobs”, you’ll see that mine appears to be the only analysis to replicate the results. There’s simply next to no money on the side of native programmers and the big money of corporations keeps calling the tunes. I hope that you will also bring on a panel of native programmers from Silicon Valley, both those that have lost their jobs and those who are working for some of the sweat shops that many of our high-tech companies have become.

  • Guest

    I was on H1B for 2.5 years while working in a well known high tech company. I had several offers from startups and smaller tech companies. Although I could have been more productive and useful in those smaller companies and startups, I chose not to leave so as not to endanger my green card case. I think the whole uncertainty around H1B visas makes many high tech workers less efficient and suboptimal.

  • Ehkzu

    Question for the Indian lady who got scammed: how did they find out who she was and what her phone number was–at work, right? Sounds like the scammers weren’t just phoning people at random. So why her?

  • AD

    @ H1-B employees contributing to the local economy.

    Most H1-B employees arrive in the country to do their masters.
    So here are a bunch of 20 somethings of age, who arrive in the country, the first thing they do is pay high tuition fee, subsequently find jobs, pay taxes, buy homes and spend and live in the local economy.

    From a capitalist economy point of view, this is an amazing financial incentive. No investment, only returns from the day they step in by young individuals.

    And there is already sufficient protection for domestic workers. Yes there are a few bad apples which dodge the rules, but which system is perfect ? Let not the bad apples color the entire category with such a broad brush.

    • The flaw in your reasoning is that the people coming in from developing world are both younger and hungrier than the Americans they displace.
      Americans are not concerned with getting sent back to a third-world hellhole. They are simply trying to build a life. They do have standards, such as not wanting to have to work 60 hours a week for a 40 hour salary, which is not uncommon in the H-1B world.
      H-1B recipients are nothing more than modern-day indentured servants, and that is how most businesses treat them. Americans expect a modicum of respect.

      • AD

        So are you saying the citizens of “Greatest Country in the World” is afraid of the hard-working attitude of individuals from “third-world hellholes” ?

        Whatever happened to the “Hard working hands that built this nation” ? .. oh.. wait… maybe these individuals from “third-world hellholes” are infact one of the hard working hands building the country.. . Perhaps they deserve better treatment then. Hence this discussion.

        @ your point :

        H-1B recipients are nothing more than modern-day indentured servants, and that is how most businesses treat them. Americans expect a modicum of respect.

        I’m sorry. But the only one disrespecting Americans here is you. I think H1-B workers like me coming from other countries are inspired and encouraged to work hard in this nation just like the people here do. There is a lot that we give, and lot that we benefit. Just like all the citizens here.
        Its disrespectful of you to claim that Americans are less hard-working or afraid of the hard working kinds.

        Besides, what is your data point for your comments ? “indentured servants” :
        These are highly educated individuals working for some of the top name companies. We know our rights and also our responsibilities. And if you think there are some insecurities fueling in and companies taking advantage of them, yes, there are a few bad apples. So yes, please help us by streamlining the process of immigration. Noone is asking to make it “easier”. We ask to make it more practical and logical. Do not keep these H1-B holders hanging through a bureaucratic process which makes them vulnerable.

        • But that “vulnerability” is what makes H-1Bs so attractive to employers. It is very difficult to change jobs, since the visa is held by the employer. If an employer thinks an H-1B is about to jump ship, he can send him home. The H-1B is bound to the employer, hence the reference to indentured servitude.
          Take away that vulnerability and the financial windfall currently available to employers goes away, along with the reason for hiring H-1Bs in the first place.

          • AD

            You are essential basing your argument on a narrow group of employers who chose to abuse the system.

            @ Changing jobs on H1-B : Other than requiring the new employer to do a transfer, there are no obstacles to change jobs on H1-B. Legally, a company cannot prevent a employee from transferring their H1-B visa. The employee needs nothing at all from the current employer to transfer H1-B nor is the employer informed or aware of the transfer process. I have gone through a H1-B transfer, so I know what I am talking about.

            All your arguments seem to indicate that some US based employers are abusing the law. We all stand united on that, lets fix it. To blame the existence of the H1-B system and direct unfair treatment to H1-B employees because it is abused by some, is hardly an argument.

            As a society, you are getting highly educated individuals in a high skilled labor. These are the same people who spend their earnings here, buy homes, create startups and create further employment.

      • Tyagi

        Your view looks really biased towards one abused way in which H1s are used. H1s as per today’s forum are paid 26% higher than the american counterparts. Most of these H1 workers come from India, and I can tell you for certain while life can be tough for lower strata in India its far from being “Third World Hell Hole” for these techies specifically

        Additionally, those who have made it here are already hard working in most of the cases, without having a deportation gun to their head, and don’t mind stretching while they are young. Not saying its the best approach to handle one’s career or professional life.

        • Would you mind citing your source for the 26% figure? I know it’s utter bunk, but it might be good for a laugh.

          • Mason Gibb

            H-1B visa holders earn more than comparable native-born workers. H-1B workers are paid more than U.S. native-born workers with a bachelor’s degree generally ($76,356 versus $67,301 in 2010) and even within the same occupation and industry for workers with similar experience.
            -source: Brookings Institute
            http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/05/10-h1b-visas-stem-rothwell-ruiz
            I know nothing about the methodology used in those statistics, but there are think tanks that back up Tyagi’s sentiments.

          • I remember that study now. It was fundamentally flawed because it compared all Americans in IT (including computer operators, sys admins, and tech-support) against H-1B’s who can’t even be brought in for such low level jobs.

            In other words, it is an apples to oranges comparison.

            EDIT: If you really want to get to the truth, you might want to consider a report from the other side:
            http://cis.org/no-stem-shortage

          • John80224

            Brookings found that figure by breaking down wage data by similar age and broad category. There’s no indication of geography nor granular job function taken into account. The H-1B concentrates on the higher paid computer professions, especially in higher paid metropolitan areas. This bloats the numbers in two very important ways. A software engineer in Silicon Valley may be paid twice what a help desk worker is, who in turn is paid twice what that role would make in rural Kentucky. Yet all of these roles are compared “equally” in the study.

          • Mumbai Job Robber

            that’s the biggest load of crap ever

          • Tyagi

            Did you listen to today’s forum program on NPR? Michael Krasny said this you might want to listen to it.

        • John80224

          No, H-1Bs are not paid 26% higher than their American counterparts. See my comment above for edification as to the fallacy of that quote.

    • John80224

      The problems with your point are 1) they leave out related effects and 2) you characterize the exception as the rule.

      To the first flaw, the benefit of pay to foreign workers is smaller than paying a domestic worker. World Bank estimates Indian remittances out of the US at an annual rate of $70 billion currently. We often hear arguments of the many US workers pushed out of the field altogether by the abuse of this visa. But perhaps more impacting are those less dramatically impacted. My net contribution to government coffers is easily over a hundred thousand dollars less since my layoff for no better cause than to make room for visa holders. But such factors are almost never factored into the studies.

      To the second flaw, over half the H-1Bs for the last few years have gone to offshoring companies that are notorious for many illegal practices including underpaying and discrimination against protected grounds.

      The idea behind the visa is a good one. It has been perverted into something awful.

  • Nath

    Just two quick comments from a guy with more than 9 years on H1B and still waiting for Green card —
    1. This DOES NOT happen with all the employees but there are few cases where this happens — where employees may not get pay hike properly as their employers know they won’t have retention problem with them as their Greencard is in currently progress!

    2. Green card process has specific rules that you cannot deviate from your job field as part of your career progression — this definitely restrict few of us in our choices where we cannot to move into different field as part of career progression or interest.

    • marte48

      I am an American, and I have not received a raise for over ten years. Policies towards H1B’s tend to roll over to all contractors.

  • Wingman

    Your guests bring up issues that speak to the American Education System. Companies are finding it harder and harder to find qualified individuals to fill positions, this situation highlights the failures of our schools.

    • marte48

      since we don’t pay teachers as much as tech engineers, the best do not become teachers.

      • MOnkinSF

        How do you draw this conclusion?

        • marte48

          I taught at San Jose City College for seven (7) years (1973 – 1980) 75% (3 out of 4) instructors in the California community college system were part time (still true today.) I was paid $10 per hour for 4 hours per week = $40 per week. Nearly all of the other teachers were part time. Some taught at other JCs if they were fortunate. The most hours I ever taught was 8 hours per week. There was never more hours available than that. That did not pay me enough to have a car, so I got around on a bicycle, but I had to give up my work-study job at San Jose State because $80 per week was too much to qualify for work study financial aid. I rode my bike 20 miles per day every day for seven years, but did not make enough money to both pay rent and eat. The myths abound about how well paid teachers are.

          • MOnkinSF

            Marte, good facts! Did we have this H1B issue in the 70’s when you were underpaid?
            $10 in the 70’s equals $41 in the 2015. $41 per hour in 2015 could hardly be considered underpaid. Did you hold advanced degree at that time to lecture? Most of the assistant professors in 2015 are not paid for $41 per hour in the US.
            http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=10&year1=1976&year2=2015

          • marte48

            $41 x 4 hours per week = $164 dollars per week.

          • MOnkinSF

            You only worked 4 hours while others worked for 40 hours a week.

          • marte48

            Please read what I wrote. They would not give me a full time teaching job, and 75% (“seventy-five percent”) of the teachers in the California JC system were / are also part time, not just me.

          • marte48

            no reply?

          • MOnkinSF

            Don’t you think you could find anther part time? What prevent you from becoming an engineer?

          • marte48

            No, I could not find another part time job. I did freelancing, but that was never steady or predictable. Sometimes I did the work but was never paid. I was studying art, not engineering. I was working on a degree in commercial art. It took 10 years to finish it, because I did not have the money to pay for school. I did not have the money for a car or for food. Apparently you have always had everything you needed.

          • marte48

            75% (seventy-five percent) 3 out of 4 teachers in the California JC system are part time.

          • MOnkinSF

            Others work 40 hours a week. The question is for you.

          • marte48

            Please read what I wrote. They would not give me a full time teaching job, and 75% (“seventy-five percent”) of the teachers in the California JC system were also part time, not just me.

          • marte48

            Google and Apple both pay over $50 per hr for any engineer.

          • MOnkinSF

            No one is preventing you from apply for a job.

      • asdfasdfasdfasfd

        unfortunately that is a long long fact , before technology boom was a concept. wasn’t it a saying in this country that “those who can do; those who can’t, teach ” ? I’m not against teachers and totally support having an elite teaching force. But I did not invent that phrase, it reflects a fact long present in this country.

        on a even more heated issue, I think the teach union largely brought the demise and deterioration of its own trade, trying to cover everyone into its protection, failing to self-clean the bad apples

        • marte48

          you are misinformed, and your opinions are obviously based upon myths.

    • jurgispilis

      since we can hire an ample robust educated work force from abroad, why invest in education?

    • Alice Blue

      Utterly not true. The American school system makes a real effort to educate all students – handicapped, disinterested, non-English speaking, whatever. In some of the smartmouthed countries who are badmouthing us here, many children are siphoned off and out of education. So, people compare their creme de la creme to our average, then say that we are failing. No we aren’t.

    • Mumbai Job Robber

      B*llsh!t, there are tons of qualified Americans, companies are instead looking to live of infrastructure paid in large part by the American tax-payer, but to hire the H1B scab instead of that same American tax payer. Too bad, hire all the H1B “geniuses” back in India when you open up shop in India. American jobs are for American citizens, not H1B job robbers. Deal with it

  • fari60

    While I was on H1B visa waiting for my green card working at a big high tech company, I had several job offers from smaller startups where my skills could have been way more useful. I chose not to change my job and stay suboptimal due to complications of H1B visa and not to endanger my green card case.

  • AD

    @ Getting green-card to H1-B holders.

    Taking a personal note,
    – I have a Masters’ degree from a top rates US Universities
    – 3 Patents awarded by US Patent Office
    – 7+ years of work in US

    Yet I am staring at a endless wait for a green-card. Personally I do not care for the card as much, but after 7+ years of hard work, having proved my merit and worth, I care for some level of stability. Having myself and my family go through some sort of extension paper ever so often, is nerve wracking.
    All I care (and I may take the liberty of speaking for a wider audience) is some stability. If I have a 6+ year H1-B work experience, give me another 5 years without badgering me into extension paperwork. If GreenCard is the only means, then lets simplify that.

    Stamping GreenCards to masters degree on the other hand is an opposite extreme which I do not support. You want a workforce of high skilled labor, not a collection of people holding masters degree.
    Let the 6 year H1-B work period be the vetting period for a high skilled workforce and make a predictable system where this period of hard works, earns the H1-B holder the stability of a GreenCard or whatever else seems reasonable.

  • Ramon

    I work with many H1B visa coworkers, some of them great workers and personally have nothing against them. What I see is that companies are abusing this to replace workers and reduce costs. Personally I have a friend, older worker with many years of experience, who is having a real hard time finding a job. Yet, I am surrounded by many young indian engineers doing the same job. What I see is that companies don’t want to retain older workers. It seems a lack of social responsibility from companies. I also see a large high school drop out rate and don’t see companies making a significant effort to actively invest in keeping this american kids in school and promoting college. I am for bringing talent from all over the globe, but here is more of a mechanism to control wages and avoid investing in the local american talent.

    • Mason Gibb

      I can’t speak to your friend as an individual, but older workers often have a difficult time finding employment due to age discrimination–particularly those with an employment history mainly as ind. contractors in the tech sector. This bias is separate from H1B program.

      • Alice Blue

        It is not a separate issue. Most of the H-1Bs are young Asian males. Diversity in Silicon Valley IT has plummetted since they arrived. They force out the more diverse Americans.

        • asdfasdfasdfasfd

          Americans (if by that you mean the natives) are more diverse than the foreign workers ——– sounds a bit similar to “some animals are more equal than others ” , just saying….

          • Alice Blue

            America was already the most diverse nation on earth long before any Asian on an H-1B arrived. The percentage of blacks, Hispanics, and women in IT has fallen like a dropped knife since the H-1B program got ramped up. It’s almost all conceited young Asian males any more.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            come on lady, you got to have some facts when it’s so easy to find some : http://www.google.com/diversity/at-google.html

            white 60% asian 30% , and that is not all foreign workers. “it’s almost all conceited young asian males ” can only show your fixation on “young asian males” as to blow up that percentage so much .

  • jurgispilis

    After hearing the show, It’s obvious to see what’s going on here. The foreign workers are kept anxious, sharp, and on their toes. The native workers are kept anxious, sharp, and on their toes. Everybody is miserable except the employers, the 1%, who are racking it in.
    Let’s abolish this wasteful, harmful, inhumane program.

  • Marybelle

    At least one caller to your show has based her comments on the assumption that any foreign-looking or foreign sounding person is a foreign national. Please take note: American nationals of Asian heritage have lived in this country, this bay area, for generations. Base your comments on real numbers, not perceptions, or the easy path of scapegoating.

  • Haran

    Well this is not a black or white issue like pretty much everything else. There are really smart, hardworking and highly talented students from different parts of the world who use F1 visa and subsequently H1-B and Green Card as a way to immigrate to the US and they contribute immensely to this country.

    At the same time, F1, H1B visas are used by mid/low-tier universities to admit more high-tuition paying graduate students and they flood the market with mediocre engineers and tech consulting companies misuse H1B visas to bring in low paid workers from abroad.

    There is nothing wrong in providing a pathway for highly talented individuals to immigrate to this country but at the same time we need to have proper checks and balances to ensure the system is not misused. And both these scenarios co-exist currently and people pick one or the other to highlight their opinion. How to implement the right checks is a policy decision and I am not sure if the Govt can ever get it right.

  • Tyagi

    While there is truth to abuse of H1B visa program its also true that immigrant workers bring high skills and entrepreneurial zeal with them. More than a third of tech companies in silicon valley have one or more immigrant cofounder and this is excluding kids of first generation immigrants who in many cases start companies of their own.

    To the point of h1 s taking the jobs, while it might look accurate in individual cases its also true that companies have hard time filling tech positions; average time for which a position is open before getting filled is 90 days in Silicon Valley.

    To put things in perspective sample this

    US economy is 16-17 trillion population is approx 320 Million. H1 b workers present in US at any point in time 500k all this in conjunction with college graduate unemployment rate of 2~3%

    • John80224

      So in your first paragraph you’re claiming foreign entrepreneurs under perform? SV technology roles are now over half foreign born, yet the share of founders is somewhere in the 20-40% range.

      What is the perspective in which you are attempting to put things? You provide four random facts that might be tied to immigration in some light but little connection between them. What does the size of the total population have to do with the number of foreign workers in a sliver of the occupations?

      I’m against the perversion of the skilled immigration POLICY not immigrants themselves. But I’m also somewhat sick of this continual undertone of vast superiority of immigrants, usually flimsily supported or downright refuted by the very facts the banner man is waving.

      • Tyagi

        No they are better performers and I will come to reason of that in later part of my answer. First, your argument has a flaw it assumes all foreign born technology workers are eligible to start a venture. Visa conditions do not allow them to open their own ventures. I can elaborate on this but I think this is pointer enough to where I am going to go with this point.

        Sorry, If I didn’t connect dots for your. But you have answered your own question this whole thing is just a “sliver” and gets undue share of attention.

        Now why I say immigrants perform better. Please exclude sweat shops for this argument

        Its not because they are from superior race or background its just that most them have come here after multiple filters. By filters I mean various levels of competency checks. They are better trained and better at studies when compared to larger population in their home countries.
        To put it simply take case of Indian immigrants. Indian who move to US are by and large better at studies in India. When they come here you cannot say that Indians are better at math or something because you have a sample bias.

        I would say average US worker is better than average Indian worker because US has better education and training facilities. But when you select above average from India and compare it with larger US worker set then certainly yes Indians would appear better.

        There are 3 million Indians in US which is less than 1% of US population but they occupy disproportionate number of high skilled and top exec jobs. Average Indian house hold income in US is nearly double the national average. All of this is because of “sample bias”. So it partly confirms that if not best at least better gets into US. So while it might be offending, and understandably so, factually it appears that atleast Indian immigrants are doing better

        • John80224

          But now you’ve introduced the same bias in reverse. You are comparing the multi-filtered immigrant to the average American.

          I’ll admit I overstated the underperformance point. But these studies, just as I neglected visa complications, neglect many facets as well or “bait and switch” with tactics like talking about founders in one sentence then discussing companies in the next.

          At the heart of it, the studies seem to “prove” what they set or to from the beginning. There are degrees of talent everywhere and the US does not have monopoly on it. I’d we can find a way to not make immigration policy more about overlooking domestic talent and often disadvantage both sides, I’m for it.

        • John80224

          I have a hard time classifying the attention as undue, though. There are easily a dozen undoculegal immigration stories to every skilled and that’s probably a very.conservative estimate, especially given the amount of abuse and.concentration in a relatively small amount of disciplines.

          • Tyagi

            I am afraid I dont understand “dozen undoculegal stories to every skilled?”

          • John80224

            I made up a word because I don’t intend to debate the larger side of immigration and simply choosing a term (undocumented v. Illegal) seems to polarize. But the point was that it gets FAR more coverage than skilled immigration so I personally don’t see this as an overly discussed topic.

          • Tyagi

            I agree when you say it gets FAR more attention, and in my opinion rightly so. From politicians perspective in 2020 the voting population will not be dominated by any single racial group and people from Asian, Latino or multiple race heritage will form the majority, I think politicians are cognizant of that fact especially democrats.

            Skilled immigration, when you talk from count perspective, is minuscule compared to illegal immigrants and I think the coverage skilled immigration gets is disproportionate.

  • Guest

    I’m from the southwestern United States but I’ve been working in the bay area (mostly san francisco) in IT since the late 90’s. there is a boom but i am not experiencing it. Both my previous boss and I are looking for work and we get countless offers for contract work at a rate far lower (50%) than i’ve ever seen before. San Francisco companies expect contractors to work at the same rate as a full time employee or lower without any of the benefits (and all the risk of not having a job tomorrow). it’s not a living wage for the area.
    is H-1B to blame? I don’t know…but I assume the resources that are here now working for cheaper wages is hurting many of us and driving many away. i believe in globalization and its inevitability, but it seems like we recklessly opened the flood gates somewhere in the early 2000s

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      it’s all about supply and demand. if other labor sources can provide the same quality deliverables as US labor, and at lower cost, the capital is going to choose the former. if policies are arbitrarily set to prevent the former in US, then capital is going to flow to those countries where such labor is abundant, causing much bigger damage to the US economy.

      you know that talent cost is the biggest cost in the IT industry right? —- you don’t need to setup huge factories with expensive equipments like an oil refinery, just need some cheap DELL laptops and an office.

      • John80224

        At some point, your theory is true. But there has been this thing called the internet for some time now with many people across the world able to access it and work at much lower rates than the US. Yet, in many instances it is still preferable to have the workers here.

        Where the breaking point lies is tricky, but your binary analysis doesn’t hold up to reality.

  • joyceck

    what percentage of the US population are IT engineers?

  • Tyagi

    US is great country because for long time it has been a place where people from around the world have found opportunity and hope. It has allowed people to come in and work their way up and in the process contribute to the nation’s economy.

    Citizens always have upper hand, given they are abreast with latest in the technology field. Tech sector is one sector where you can’t hope to acquire one skill and just live your life on it. You cant expect to program in COBOL while people are far ahead.

    Imagine a scenario where H1 B s are not allowed in the US you will have 500K+ high skilled jobs to fill, well have good luck filling them. Additionally, this will drive the wages up and make the US tech companies less competitive, those 500K people are going to go to some place else and work. Don’t think US can retain it’s human capital edge if it doesn’t keep attracting the best from all over the world

    This program has been there in place for more than 2 decades now and I don’t see any apocalyptic outcomes, as few people are suggesting, on middle class jobs. Tech industry has grown and created more jobs than ever.

    • Skip Conrad

      baloney!

    • John80224

      The US is a great country because for a long time it has been a place where people have found opportunity and hope. Some have been from around the world, many from within.

      Explain to me how I had the upper hand when I, along with hundreds of others, 91% of whom were 40 or over, were laid off from WellPoint by a new Indian VP, who replaced us almost entirely with Indian staff and an Indian offshoring company, Cognizant. And please don’t be foolish enough to claim that because its HQ is in NJ Cognizant is not an almost purely Indian offshoring company. And again, please don’t be foolish enough to try to make that out to be an isolated incident. And no, I wasn’t expecting COBOL or VB6 to pull me through. I won’t stoop to your generally false stereotyping level.

      I don’t think we should shut down immigration, but most of our human capital attraction is of the good and cheap enough from around the world category, not best and brightest. Current abuse of policy is only marginally about sharpening that edge.

      This reliance on finding the world’s best also ignores a good share of this nation’s. For every truly gifted foreign worker MS brings in, there are easily as many such domestic workers they never even looked at.

      • Tyagi

        Sir, I assume you are not a native american, are you? So “many from within “argument can be debated on the basis of your definition of “long time”. Would you take first generation immigrants as within or the second or third?

        I am sorry for your experience. But that is capitalism and free market which US promotes and claims to be a leader. Off-shoring is purely brutal economics, there might be many facets to it but its economics which dictates off-shoring. In Indian IT too this phenomenon has started there are many jobs which are getting outsourced to Vietnam and Philippines.

        My intention with COBOL example was not to stereotype and is just a very small factor in larger scheme of things which got unfairly highlighted in my argument.

        While there is abuse of H1B policy and I can empathize with someone who had had to face job loss and loss of income, I don’t agree with the point, at least from my experience, where good competent Americans are overlooked when there is a job which has to be done in America.

        I agree with you on: Abuse of policy should be stopped it hurts citizens and (may I add) competent immigrants equally.

  • luizacc

    Live in a H1B visa is hard, but more and more people want the opportunity.

    I believe every one needs to realize that we are in USA territory. I believe that more and more people that have been elected in USA are doing less and less for the American people. Before continuing, let me tell you a bit about myself: I am not an American-born woman. I came to USA because of my marriage with someone I met in Canada. I am a computer scientist that cannot find a job. My opinion here is not based on the fact that it is hard to find employment, but based on the general situation that I am seeing young undergrads. However, I know how hard it is to get accepted at a (good) school in North America, and how hard it is to succeed in school. So, now let me get back to my point….

    Nobody needs to stay in USA. It is a privilege. However, Americans are Americans and should stay and have a “reasonable life” and opportunities, live the “American dream”. However, due to the global economy and the greediness of companies, the “American dream” is getting more to be “live the American nightmare”.

    People are “dying” to come to USA and stay here. People, in these circumstances, are willing to accept almost any job, at any offer, if they are sponsored. Most come to USA for graduate studies (that is the way I came to North America). With that scenario, these young grad students, most from outside USA, will be competing for the jobs that young Americans that are finishing undergrad studies are also competing. If you were in the position of a company, who would you hire? Someone with lots of knowledge, smart, or someone that just finished their undergrad? It is a brainless answer, if both cost almost the “same” amount… -and they do- and the USA government allows it.

    I heard the conversation on the radio. It was mentioned “how hard it is to come to study here”. Yes it is. There is no doubt that the great majority of the people that are coming from another country is very smart! So, yes, it is hard; but more and more people want to come. So the argument that it is very hard is not a good one: you do not have to come to USA. You chose to come.

    Regarding leaving in the uncertainty of H1B. Again, it is a choice. You do not have to stay. You stay because you want to stay, and, I am sure you are “paying a high price” for that choice. However, so are the Americans that could not get the job you got. Needless to say that salaries for everyone is also affected.

    Bottom line: I believe the people that are elected should work to help Americans first!!!! If this country decides to help just about everyone, everyone will have a lower standard of living. H1Bs should either be even more restricted, may be to 1K max, or totally abolished – and no extra benefit should be given to “spouses” of H1Bs. Educate the Americans, and do not allow companies to pay almost nothing to whoever wants, so desperately, to stay here. It is not good for the American People in general, just very few.

    My 2 cents.

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      what you said is clearer in logic than most of the comments in this thread. What we can do in this discussion is only trying to be as clear and logical as possible, but finally it all comes down to whose interests you represent, who is getting that piece of pie.

      but we should remember that this country has always been a country made by immigrants (new and old, starting all the way from Columbus), There was an interesting phrase in the movie “Gangs of New York” : “native Americans”. That doesn’t mean the native Americans that populated this continent before Columbus, but referred to those immigrants that came before the immigrant flood in late 19th century, who considered themselves more “native” compared to the late-comers. 100 years later, this thread will be just as funny as that

      • luizacc

        I believe in immigrants, and I believe that USA is one of the countries with the most open door in the world for currently. I am one of the immigrants.

        However, since I moved to North America, I did not expect things to be “easy”, or being entitled to something/anything. Listening to the program, I felt that people were trying to convince why they should have a, b, c, etc.

        I have the “bad habit” of always be looking towards the future. Because of that, I believe what is happening now is not good for the future of this country. It is not good for the future of our kids. I believe the political decisions regarding immigrants, including H1Bs, have to be according to the welfare of Americans first and foremost – and yes, I include the ones that are already citizens of this country, independent of who and where they are from.

        This country is made by immigrants, and should continue to be. However, decisions regarding immigration – who, how many, for what – should be made with the best interest of Americans and not just a few that run companies. These few have very “little interest” on the general Americans, and even for the “temporary visas” that they are sponsoring. They think numbers and not people. I do not blame them; they are companies and exist to make money. However, the government is the one that should be “looking” for the overall situation of Americans.

        In this forum, the discussion was regarding H1Bs. So, I will focus on that. I believe the government has given, and keeps giving, too many H1Bs. It is getting harder and harder to get a job in this area, even though companies keep claiming that there are very few “qualified” individuals. Qualification is relative; it goes together with expectation. I believe companies are way-off regarding their expectation to fill a software engineer position, or positions in IT in general.

        Furthermore, the ones that are being given H1Bs are thinking that because they got the H1B, they should get citizenship, almost as an entitlement. If that is not enough, some group that also got the H1Bs believe that their spouse should have the right to work in USA also. I do not blame them to try to push their thoughts and try to get what they want. However, I hope the government will make decisions that will take in consideration how “this” will affect Americans. The government needs to get and analyse REAL data, and not data being provided by certain groups, let them be H1Bs group or “companies” group.

        In summary, my point is H1B visas need to monitored, and need to be offered in a much less number than it is offered today. Jobs in IT should be monitored to have data regarding how Americans – again, independent how, where they come from before receiving the citizenship – are benefiting from it, including data regarding age, gender, education, salary, etc. If a company wants to do business in America, I believe the company should have to give jobs to Americans first. If the company does not believe that Americans are qualified, the company should do business elsewhere, or “train” Americans!

  • Skip Conrad

    What are these people complaining about? It’s not like they were forced to come here? If they don’t like it, they can go home. I don’t get it? They’re here on a visa. If they want a green card, then apply for one.

  • joyceck

    Having a panel with H1B holders is certainly as anecdotal as a few callers. Not every H1B holder is a lower salary worker to every one of the US workers this proves nothing. Elon Musk? What about Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison and Mark Zukerberg and Eric Schmidt and on and on. We don’t NEED foreign worker to have innovative companies. If they want to try OK but we don’t really NEED them. As for some vetting process really, please who writes the documents the employer. if you are suggesting that the government polices this system you are in a fantasy land. The recruiting companies are foreign run as are many of the human resource management companies. ” If the employee is neither getting a raise, nor a promotion and is deserving, then the victim here is the employee” Are you kidding me. If that is so then why be in the US at all? Are there no foreign VC’s starting companies in other countries? The program following this one was all about that going on in China. Yes it is institutional discrimination at THIS POINT it didn’t start out that way but it has evolved to that. Our US graduates are not learning COBOL they are learning the same IT technology that everyone is learning. Let’s give our own US grads a chance and stop making lame excuses. The government is not vetting anyone they don’t even understand an IT job requirement, let alone vetting candidates.

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      your comment gave me quite a chill in the mind as it brought me immediately back to 15 years ago shortly after I came into this country. My landlord of the house I rented in, had a debate with me and basically reflected the same mentality you had: the grad school education foreign students get, and the latter jobs they receive in US job market, are basically a “hand out” from US government and we should be so forever grateful for this blessing. foreign workers are non-essential and basically dispensable, hence the nature of the H1B “guest worker” program.

      I don’t know how you can categorically assert that one group (be it by country of origin: native, foreign/chinese/indian, or be it by ethnicity: caucasian,asian,black) always have better performance than the other. in my experience recently running down to UCLA campus recruiting, one master graduate has a hard time doing a merge sort coding question, while another excelled. the latter rejected our offer and went to FB. both are native students.

      • joyceck

        The same mentality? don’t be so smug as to think you know my mentality. I have been in the IT business for 40 years and know plenty about it. As I stated earlier, one of my own companies had two partners from India and we had programmers in Bangalore as well as the US. We did this without the H1B program. Since it has been put in place the number of good jobs has fallen for US workers. I don’t think there should be an expansion of it. Why can’t you live with that? There are many languages and API’s in the IT world no one knows them all. Your example doesn’t mean anything. I never made any assertion about superior or inferior workers by race or ethnic background that is your hang-up. I believe the industry is abusing the H1B program and is denying US workers opportunities that were available before it came into practice. Nothing you have said has disproven that. When you fall into personal attacks that is the hallmark of someone who has no valid argument.

        • asdfasdfasdfasfd

          that’s very funny sir, one the one hand you cry out for losing US jobs to foreign workers ; on the other hand you just proudly claimed you gave work to “programmers in Bangalore”, aren’t you guilty of your own charges ? or at least being hypocritical because you simply don’t see the job loss process here in Silicon Valley?

          oh yes anyone can see your mentality:” US don’t NEED foreign workers, you guys came on your own “

          • joyceck

            Your example of sort algorithm is petty and small minded. Your assumption I am a “SIR” is sexist and shows how prejudiced you really are. Your assertion that you know my mentality and that it is obvious is a failed personal attack and makes your arguments irrelevant. Only someone with a mentality like yours can twist what was an attempt to spread the wealth around without the hassle of immigration as a mean act, just further shows that your arguments are totally without merit. And yes we don’t NEED foreign workers. If they want to come, there should be a limit to give locals an opportunity as well. The fact that you can’t live with that shows you have a mentality problem of your own.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            “petty and small minded” ?? very funny, if u say computer science 101 is “petty” what are your criteria in hiring ?

            what is “petty” is ur attempt to paint me as “sexist”, madam (or sir or whatever u are , if u prefer sexual-neutral, man I have to be so careful in these terms to be PC )

            “spread the wealth ” ? are you kidding? u say that as if these foreign workers come here and show up at the table and immediately start eating your pie. Truth of the matter is that the great majority of them worked hard to help create tech giants like Yahoo, Google, Paypal and **created** the wealth. hardly anyone among this population, zero, benefited from the welfare programs they contributed to (Social Security, medicare, jobless support (since they are forced to go back immediately in case of job loss ) ), so “spreading” the wealth ??

            ok, whether u believe u NEED foreign workers really is insignificant, that only reflects your bigotry. what’s important is that the industry realize the need for acquiring the brightest talent across the global market, and that’s the fact.

            who said I “can’t give native workers a chance?”, I am just saying so far in legit companies it’s a fair competition and fair chances for everyone

          • joyceck

            “What ever you are?” What are you? Stubborn as a donkey? There is no bigotry in not needing foreign workers. Not liking them categorically, that would be bigotry. Get your ideas straight. Stop making bogus assumptions. So you don’t think locals worked hard to get through university and start companies. How’s the venture climate in India or China for American entrepreneurs? Non-existent. Where is the global market there? What’s fair about that? You don’t think that establishing jobs in foreign countries is spreading the wealth? Then why give out foreign aid or why do IBM and many others have facilities there? You make spreading the wealth sound like an insult instead of an opportunity. If you don’t need it, don’t take it. Why do we have an obligation to give out opportunities? Well there are quite a few non-legit companies then and laws are most needed for them. BTW your example IS petty and computer 101 is not the best measure of creativity or Innovation, Gates and Zukerberg and Jobs were drop outs and Einstein flunked 8th grade math.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            As to venture culture in China, wake up madam, are u in stone age? Ever heard of Alibaba ? Zynga got popular to a large extent because at one time it copy-cat’ted a Chinese happy farm game. Alipay is way more mature in online payment coverage than paypal.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            U lack the ability to think straight: zuckerberg and gates dropped out not because they were incompetent in 101 but because they saw bigger opportunities. Zuckerberg already had the FB prototype while still in Harvard, if u bring something like that u definitely would be much more competitive. Both zuckerberg and gates excelled in coding even before college.

            BTW u really don’t have any legitimacy arguing against H1B workers as long as you give jobs to India which could have been reserved here for native workers, isn’t it so? That’s textbook outsourcing. Talk the talk, walk the walk.

          • joyceck

            You lack the ability to think at all apparently. Gates et all are example of entrepreneurs, that are from the US, so we don’t NEED foreign entrepreneurs. They didn’t need comp 101 so measuring that is irrelevant. We setup a facility in India before the H1B program existed. That was because my Indian partners had people there they wanted to include. I’m not saying no H1B’s just not this many. All you is talk, talk, talk, and don’t listen. you have no cogent argument so you just attack, attack attack. Sad little egotist.

          • MOnkinSF

            Great. Let him call you “it”. No confusion any more.

          • joyceck

            Ok can I call you donkey brain?

        • asdfasdfasdfasfd

          sir you claim to be in the “IT business for 40 years” and you don’t know what “merge sort coding problem” is. it’s not a “many languages and API’s in the IT world”, it’s computer science 101

    • MOnkinSF

      Wasn’t Elon Musk Canadian before he came to the US?

      Elon Reeve Musk is a South-Africa–born, Canadian-American. You need to do a better homework.

      • joyceck

        little buddy mentioned Musk not me!

  • Di Hu

    Hi, I’m one of the guests on the show. I’m glad that there are a lot of discussion around this topic. It seems like there are a lot of negativity around H1B workers. There are several things I’d like to point out:

    1. A lot of people are complaining about jobs being stole by H1B holders at lower wages etc. Please remember that about 100 years ago, the exact same thing was said about the Irish, Italians and Greeks. Which leads to my next point.

    2. Competition is good. We’re living in a globalized, free market, and this isn’t limited to goods, but talents too. Without competition, markets will stagnate and the same applies to people. One shouldn’t blame the other for being better suited for the labor market, rather said person should constantly improve their own qualities to stay competitive.

    3. Competition leads to innovation and brings entrepreneurship. This should be self explanatory.

    4. Many people here have grievances against stagnating wages or companies outsourcing jobs overseas. Please note that the wage stagnation (country wide) has been there since the 90s and companies will always look for a way to lower cost. Is it fair to blame the H1B holders for this general trend?

    5. H1B holders are not completely stuck without a raise or carrier change. I personally switched a few jobs and have seen a steady increase in pay as I acquire new skills. I’m not saying I have as many options as I wish, but no company has held me “hostage”.

    6. H1B holders is not a homogenous group of people, and please don’t regard us as the gray mass from the movie Metropolis. We all are individuals and have a different story to tell, which goes back to my 1st point. Almost everyone in the US came from somewhere else, there’s no need to ostracize us just because we’re new.

    • John80224

      The biggest challenge most of us have around the workers isn’t a problem with them so much as the pedestalled portrayal of them. If not in this story, time and time again we hear “best and brightest” when most experiences are a broad range of talent that does not prove to be implicitly superior. No, I don’t fault people for just wanting to better their lives, but I do take offense at being lumped in as lazy and stupid simply for having been born in the US.

      Re: #2, I blame companies and government policy for deeming “more impoverished” as “better suited”.
      Re: #3, under these circumstances, competition may very well lead to abandoning the very fields where we should be strongest if we want to innovate and grow.
      Re: #4, I don’t enjoy but am not surprised by offshoring. However, it is not my government’s duty to hasten it by making exceptions to immigration while granting tacit amnesty in the breaking of our laws in the process.
      Re: #5, correct. They are not completely stuck but are far from on a level playing field.
      Re: #6 ditto on US IT workers.

    • Whamadoodle

      I definitely think that America does and should stand for welcoming people of all national origins, and I join you in deploring the attempt to make a gated community out of America.

      I do have a problem, though, with the PRECIPITATE way that America’s entire manufacturing and services sector was SUDDENLY thrown into chaos, and into constant fear of job loss, by outsourcing and offshoring. This is a separate issue, and it’s part of a larger issue of a race to the bottom in wages on the part of our executive class. It forces most wage-earners into a state of poverty, by exploiting the fact that worker and environmental protection laws, for example, can’t be standardized across the entire planet. So companies move to where they can exploit workers by creating suicidal FoxConn sweatshops, where conditions are so lax that pollution becomes deadly. The company directors win some extra bonus money, but this is a huge problem.

      Again, though, it is nonsense to try to solve it by building a gated community of America, and forbidding immigration.

  • asdfasdfasdfasfd

    🙂 didn’t you just answer your own “question” ? every human as in the labor force, is an independent self-interested entity, and just like any other entity in the system, seeks to maximize his own interests , just as the native workers here

    • Mumbai Job Robber

      did you really think that was an actual question ? Is that why scab H1B’s are so smart ?

      • asdfasdfasdfasfd

        care to see that quote dude ?

    • Alice Blue

      And we have the right to fight back when you want to steal what we built.

      • asdfasdfasdfasfd

        Alice most H1B workers did not “steal” ur jobs. again I totally support punishing those shell companies doing H1B frauds, they steal as much from us hardworking legit workers as from native workers. Oversimplification is the best tool politicians want to control the mind of the people

        YES! we want fair and equal competition, as much as u do. if by “fight” u mean fair competition, I applaud you

        • Alice Blue

          Fair competition means the US doing the same as most other countries in the world do: protect their citizen labor pool. Other countries would never allow an influx of large numbers of us like the work visa programs have been.

          • asdfasdfasdfasfd

            that’s called protectism in trade. labor is a market just as any other market, if US claims to be advocating for free trade, this is an inevitable result

          • Alice Blue

            Almost every other country protects its citizens. Time for the US to do the same. We owe you nothing.

          • marte48

            Yes, the democratic movement in China – starting in Hong Kong – needs to run its course. Which it will, because people do believe naturally in democracy.

          • Glob Design

            If we’re going to have free trade then India + China + Russia all need to give 4 million IT jobs to Americans in India and China. Otherwise close the borders now.

            We either have free trade or we don’t. You can’t have it one way only.

          • Glob Design

            China puts 200% tariffs on US goods imported from the US. So does S. Korea. US puts 2% tariffs on Chinese goods.

            There are LAWS on the books in India making it illegal to hire white people there.

            Who’s protectionist now?

          • jurgispilis

            So China and India have a Yankk Exclusion Law? That’s racist!!

          • Glob Design

            TITLE 8, Section 1182 INADMISSIBLE ALIENS. Read it people.

            If labor is just a market, then why can’t 4 million Americans go work in India or China?

            Can’t have it both ways, conman.

          • marte48

            who would want to work in India or China? not me.

          • marte48

            Yes, they really don’t want American values interfering with profits, or improving workers conditions.

          • Glob Design
          • marte48

            I would not brag about our level of corruption. We lost billions of dollars in Iraq, and achieved nothing. Only multi-national corporations made money in Iraq.

          • Glob Design

            Why can’t 4 million American IT workers take jobs in India and China? Oh, those countries don’t allow millions of invaders to take their jobs. Only America does that.

          • marte48

            again, it’s a globalization issue. Multi-national corporations get to make policy and influence public opinion. It’s not the fault of individuals.

          • marte48

            no one would want to work in India or China anyway.

          • marte48

            Europe is also having immigration troubles because of the continual mid-east wars. Neo-Nazism raises its ugly head when immigrants are seen as a threat. First generation immigrants tend to try to hold onto their cultures, but second and third generations tend to become very conservative and patriotic about their new country.

        • Mumbai Job Robber

          You just don’t friggin get it do you, can get it through your thick head. You don’t have a right to come here, American citizens decide if you get to come here or not – not desperate H1B scabs that are too lazy to fix their own country.

          • marte48

            inflammatory speech does not help.

        • marte48

          Indians and Chinese need to reform their own countries.

        • marte48

          can we agree that corporations are the ones who benefit the most from engineers competing?

      • Glob Design

        EXACTLY.

        Americans created and built IT and now thieves from Asia have stolen it.

        “Immigration” is America’s Achilles’ Heel.

        • marte48

          Except that it is American businesses that took our factories and ideas overseas. Republicans still represent and protect those interests, not ours.

          • Kurt thialfad

            As do Democrats. Clinton pushed through NAFTA, by shamelessly subverting our Constitution, and regularly accepts foreign Indian money.

          • marte48

            Yes, I agree. I did not like NAFTA, and almost voted for Ross Perot, who you may remember, warned us about NAFTA.

      • marte48

        I agree that intellectual property rights should be respected. Unfortunately, we cannot refute the fact that we stole the entire continent from the people who lived here for 10,000 years. The poorest people in Mexico, Central America, and South America as well, are people who were conquered (pre and post Europeans) and are still at the bottom of the social ladder as a result.

        • marte48

          However, I do agree that the US (our DoD actually) created the internet. DARPA net or (ARPA net) – however you prefer – was created during the Cold War to make our atomic energy secrets nuclear-war-proof by distributing the hubs of the databases. It is debatable who contributed what parts of electrical theory and devices, but it was all generally funded by our (BIG) government.

    • Glob Design

      There are LAWS on the books in India making it illegal to hire white people there. Why can’t 4 million Americans go work in tech jobs in China?

      • marte48

        If America was just like India and China, do you think they would want to work here?

      • marte48

        Because no Americans want to live in India or China. Everyone wants to live here. Rich Chinese are escaping Hong Kong and buying houses in Cupertino. Both India and China are over-populated by design. Overpopulation is better for the wealthy class.

        • Kurt thialfad

          USA is the 3rd most populous nation on the planet, surpassed only by China and India. Are we overpopulated, as well?

          • marte48

            In my opinion, our cities are over-populated – Los Angeles and New York especially. Generally my impression is that the people who fear immigration tend to believe that we have too many poor people. We have lots of vacant land, but that is not where people want to live, obviously. Both China and India also have wilderness lands that are mostly vacant. My main point that I am trying to make here is that competition for jobs is due to population pressures. Engineers should be less emotional, and arrive at a logical solution to the problem at the source. Isn’t that what engineers do?

      • browneyes

        I am an Indian. You can make any laws you want, but don’t drag India into it. It is completely incorrect to say you cannot hire “white people in India.” Where on earth do you get this from? In 2005, 65,000 Americans were living and working in India. This number is now believed to be around 100,000. They own businesses, work in Indian and non-Indian companies, attend colleges. In several cities of India you see Americans/Europeans who have clearly gone local, weaving in and out of traffic on scooters and motorbikes dressed in pyjamas like the other insane drivers on Indian roads. We’re very poor, so that’s obviously a deterrent to coming here for work from the rich countries, but there isn’t any legal bar per se and lots still do come for the experience. Lots of people from Burma, Afghanistan, Mauritius, Maldives and other places more often come, live, work here. You can naturalise as a citizen also after, I think, 11 years of living here or proving some distinctive contribution, in which case you can instantaneously get citizenship.

        So many names doing non-conventional things also come to mind. Fabindia, which is a big retail chain, was founded from scratch by John Bissell and now run by his son, William Bissell (who, I guess would be a second generation Indian of American descent). There’s Tom Alter, who’s had an about 40 year career in Indian TV and movies and did this amazing series during our last general election, where he went from village to village interviewing people (he speaks fluent Hindi). There’s Romulus Whitaker, who created the Snake and Crocodile parks in India. His kids (in their forties now themselves, I think) are involved in it too. Then there’s Tyler Walker Williams (on NPR.org – “An American Gets Political at Indian University”) who despises the Indian government, says so openly, ran for elections at JNU here in Delhi and won.

  • asdfasdfasdfasfd

    this is a great discussion. But mixed up here are everyone’s interests and huge stakes and personal misfortunes, which make it difficult to be clear and logical. In fact people mix up several different topics here:
    1) “foreign workers here take away jobs from native workers “. note that it’s generally against all foreign-born workers , not just limited to H1B (ok. please stop using the word “displace”, how about “out-compete” ? ) —– “go back to China!” “go back to India!” —- these age-old slogans have actually been chanted in this thread.
    2) “H1B workers take away jobs from native workers, BECAUSE H1B workers are artificially held at lower cost due to various reasons (not because they are technically as competitive as native workers):”
    a) “they are bonded to one employer” —- factually wrong, H1B xfer is easily doable
    b) “they don’t get promotions” —- only anecdotal evidence so far
    c) “their wages are lower” —– according to my knowledge and personal experience, only true in sweat-shop H1B shell companies, absolutely not present in any legit companies
    people claiming these argue for “abolish H1B program so these guys do not come in again”
    3) “H1B workers are held under unfair, immoral conditions”
    a) no certainty, have to be prepared to be forced to sell house and head back to a country they rarely saw after college.
    b) job opportunities largely limited because we can’t go to startups due to the high risk of not being able to transfer H1B immediately if the startup fails
    people for this argument (mostly H1B workers) say “abolish H1B and make foreign workers equal as native workers”
    4) “there are many instances of H1B frauds”. everyone (native workers AND those honest, hardworking, truely talented foreign workers who worked hard to get a graduate degree here in top universities) hate these, these shell companies should be wiped out. unfortunately most native people just have so little understanding of the complexity of foreign people, and fail to recognize that this is just a similar bunch of folks as you are, which also contain both hard-working, honest workers and hacks that try to abuse the system. trying to lump them together just under the simplistic hat of “H1B workers”, or even under their ethnicity (thus including 1st,2nd generation immigrants ) is irresponsible.

    it’s easier if we debate along these separate topics

  • MOnkinSF

    Biased host! Has anyone conducted survey on the “native American college student” majors. I bet engineering is not their favorite! I attended engineering graduate school more than ten years ago. The professors had to recruit overseas for graduate students because these native American students were not willing to work hard and to stay in school for another 2 to 5 years. These undergraduate students would rather start working as sales, low level engineers for quick money. They are responsible for their own selection.

    • John80224

      Why did you pursue the advanced degree?

      • MOnkinSF

        Should we ask those who did not pursue the advanced degree why NOT?

        • John80224

          That’s not an answer and when I have a.bit of time where I’m not constrained by my phone’s UI, I will be touching on that.

          • MOnkinSF

            Regardless, on the bachelor level, the native American denounce engineering.
            Of the 1,716,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2010–11, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (365,000), social sciences and history (177,000), health professions and related programs (143,000), education (104,000), and psychology (101,000).
            Stop scapegoating others. Be an adult and face the consequence of your selection.

          • John80224

            Are you generally rebuking US citizens for not valuing engineering or more specifically at me for my suspicions around policy?

          • MOnkinSF

            Facts are facts.

          • John80224

            And yams are yams, but that still didn’t answer the question.

          • MOnkinSF

            Facts are the Native American prefer the field of business instead of the field of engineering. The number says it all.

            Beating the bush is not going to make the number differently.

        • John80224

          Just today an article, http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/student_life/article_b5fcf566-c220-11e4-8bfa-57f624349fe0.html, spoke of an immigration attorney counseling foreign students, “Obtaining the H-1B visa can be … rather daunting … so Barten encouraged students to complete a master’s degree or Ph.D., as this gives them a competitive advantage.”  For a foreign student, there’s a very tangible advantage to an advanced degree.  To a domestic, spending a great deal of money and 10% of your life to date on something that makes you only slightly better at what you love is nowhere near the same enticement.
           
          I in no way am insinuating foreign workers are somehow inherently sub-par nor have no place here.  But there’s something broken in a nation’s laws if it’s forcing domestic talent to pursue marginally valuable paths at significant expense and reducing productive time just because someone else wants to come here.  We’re talking primarily about programmers and computer scientists here—not thoracic surgeons after all.

          • MOnkinSF

            27 out of 29 undergraduate students from my class pursued advanced degrees. only 3 came to the US for advanced education. You bet that country is not the US. Your question itself is another piece of evidence of how the American exclude themselves from the engineering world.

            I am an EE major. I could tell you that my advanced degree is worthy every penny and effort I put into. The research activities helped me and my classmates to obtain not just a broader knowledge but the systematic problem solving skill, balancing trade-offs, which was labeled by you as “marginally valuable”.

          • John80224

            Which could not be gained working alongside a senior engineer in a real world environment? How in the box.

          • MOnkinSF

            A senior engineer with a textbook knowledge as old as the 70’s TV set is simply not going to teach you much.

            On the other hand, undergraduates are only qualified as technician in my company. I use them as technician. As for problem solving, debugging and new product ideas, they need way much more time to reach the level that a graduate student could easily reach. I spent more time explaining the theory to an undergraduate than discussing how to solve the issue.

            I am not saying that the undergraduates are inferior. They opted to learn in a slower way. Outliners such as Bill, Zack are just outliners. They are not examples for everyone. If they think they should all try Bill and Zack’s path, they should accept the consequence.

          • John80224

            The two questions that we need to ask then (and I’m in software so don’t claim to be an expert in the nuances of EE) are why do domestic students not pursue the degrees and why does the older engineer only have the 40 year old knowledge?

            This does dovetail to your “why not” question and I do feel there are attitudinal issues in the US as well. But in software I’ve seen a great deal of exaggeration around older developers not keeping up, which is much more often than not a false characterization.

          • MOnkinSF

            In the area of EE, that is a more prominent issue for these senior engineers. A significant amount of them refused to accept new technology. I recalled that one 50 something engineer candidate refused to use control theory during the interview. His own words were that ” I do not believe it. I would go to the bench to try.” In a world, where all engineers use control theory, transistor level simulation, etc. for design verification, he proves himself completely useless. He is not the only one. Despite that I also met a handful of senior engineers who keep eyes on the technology, not every senior engineer could be a mentor. Even they could be, their job duty does not include teaching junior students A, B, C.

          • John80224

            Having seen what I have in IT, it’s very understandable why many of us in the same field are quite leery of how policy is gamed.

            I do project those experiences onto other skilled fields, but won’t attempt to claim I know any more about what’s happening in EE than you do in CS.

            As you describe it, EE may be a case of the visa being more or less used within its intent (or at least what I believe the intent to be).

            You may note that while I may be very watchful of the program, you won’t find me saying “eradicate it” or “send all dem ferners home.”

          • John80224

            And no, I did not label those skills as marginally valuable. I labeled paying a great deal of money and time for those skills which may have been learned on the job as “marginally valuable”.

            But why did you pursue the advanced degree? Purely love of engineering? To get a job you couldn’t have reached otherwise?

          • MOnkinSF

            That is not a great deal of money. I worked 20 hours in the lab. I could pay my tuition, rent and food. Why can’t these American kids? Of course, that salary would not be sufficient to cover drugs, parties, fancy vacations. After all, these native American students selected their paths. So take the consequence.
            Why? 27 out of 29 students in my undergraduate class pursued advanced degrees. A couple of them pursued career outside of engineering, such as business and finance. The world is changing fast. Human being accumulate gigantic amount of knowledge and technology in the last 20 years. One needs much more knowledge and skills to be useful nowadays. The question should be “WHY NOT”., unless you are referring to medieval time when one could be useful by being alive.

            I know you want to force me to admit that if I did not pursue my advanced degree, I would not be able to stay in the US. Let me tell you the truth, if I did not come to the US or advanced education, I would pursue my advanced education back in my hometown, I would catch the boomtime like my classmates who stayed. I never regret my selection. I worked hard to make myself better and make my contribution to this place I now call home.

          • John80224

            Between the costs directly associated with school and the opportunity cost of a professional job vs. Part time lab work, yes, the cost is significant.

            As to why not, that depends. If an undergrad degree truly is insufficient, then there is no good reason it shouldn’t be required and yes, we are looking at immigration or other means to fill those gaps. If, however, the advanced degree is only a simplified way for companies to gauge talent then I see no reason why entry into the US job must be predicated on such a degree.

            Actually, while I may have suspicions and guesses, what I want you to tell me is the truth and your perspective and until I have reason to suspect otherwise, I’ll take you at your word. It sounds as though you would have pursued an advanced degree regardless of any immigration ramifications and I can accept that. While I definitely have some concerns and biases, I want to get to the truth of the matter.

            I do question if a centuries-old paradigm of disseminating and gathering knowledge is to be given the credence we seem to. If we continue to advance at a more and more rapid pace and continue to accept talent as washed up at 40, where does that leave us? Twelve years of productivity?

          • MOnkinSF

            When I first joined the industry, bachelor was paid for 50K, master degree for 70K, pHD for 85K yearly. the private sector won’t pay you the amount unless you are worthy. Of course, outliners exist.

            There is huge mentality difference between East Asian and the American if you represent the typical American. East Asian respect knowledge, there is NO reason why you will give up on advanced education unless you are not good enough to get admission.

  • MOnkinSF

    Another fact is that the majority of the H1B go to the few contracting companies instead of legit companies. The FBI should go after these ICCs instead of blaming the tax-paying H1B who contribute to the economy.

    • Glob Design

      RICO laws come to mind. Most Indian bodyshops are RICO rackets and they should all be arrested.

  • Whamadoodle

    Whhhew… well, sorry to have sent you over the edge, but also sorry to see you ducking out the window to avoid backing up your claims with any citation. I invited you several times to actually PROVIDE any “evidence that counters [my] preconceived notions,” but you apparently have none to cite, and are afraid to admit it. All I said was “please cite your source for your claims of taxation figures.” You have none? Sounds like you were lying, then.

    Your emotional response, when asked for either any source for your statistical claims, or to explain what exact problem you have with immigrants (a very un-American position, by the way), or to explain in any detail how it would help America economically to refuse immigrants, is disappointing, but is consistent with your other statements to date.

    You claim to have a problem with refugees from poverty, and want them to stop coming, but your stated solution is… to foment a revolution in Mexico and have them overthrow their government? What do you think happens when there’s a war, but to ensure MORE floods of refugees? Typical fantasy-world thinking. Absolutely laughable, but fortunately, you are not setting policy. Have a great day.

  • MOnkinSF

    In order to join the engineering industry, one should get a relevant degree in the first place.

    Here are the facts:

    Of the 1,716,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2010–11, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (365,000), social sciences and history (177,000), health professions and related programs (143,000), education (104,000), and psychology (101,000).

    http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=37

    • MOnkinSF

      The education system of the US also contributes.
      “We need leaders.”: Here you go. You get what you ask for.
      Everyone wants to be a leader so no one learns how to become a qualified soldier.

  • MOnkinSF
  • Glob Design

    Asian job robbers plundering the US. “Loot and remit” Indians are cleaning out the USA.

  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design

    • The U.S. already has laws on the books protecting American workers, but they are not being enforced. Namely, Title 8, Section 1182 – INADMISSIBLE ALIENS:

    (i) In general Any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that—

    (I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified (or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause

    (ii)) and available at the time of
    application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the
    place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and

    (II) the employment of such alien will not adversely
    affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States
    similarly employed.

  • Glob Design

    Immigration’s Economic Disasters In America

    Every immigration wave to the U.S. since 1900 has led to recession or depression.
    The late 1998-2000 wave was the biggest in U.S. history – bigger than
    the one from 1906-1921. Historical facts do not lie. Here is the history
    of immigration and recession to America since 1900:

    1906-1920 – Huge immigration wave from Europe – Great Depression in 1929.

    1965 – Ted Kennedy’s Immigration Reform Act – Big recession 1973-1981.

    1990 – H-1B visa program started – recession 1991-1993.

    Oct. 1998 – H-1B caps raised form 65,000 to 115,000 per year – collapse in 2001.

    Apri 2000 – H-1B caps raised from 115,000 per year to 195,000 per year – collapse in 2008.

    The fake “recovery” in the mid 2000’s was no recovery – just cheap Fed credit making up for Americans losing their jobs.

    America was built by Americans. Every buildup leads to immigrant takers who come in when times are good, strip the economy, then leave when times are bad – as they are now.

    84% of the current U.S. population was born here. Do you seriously expect us to believe the native 84% live off the work of the other 16% – immigrants? Come on – stop being either a liar or delusional. Immigration is a disaster for America.

    China and India don’t have open borders. Did we mention they are booming?

    Free Trade caused WW2 – America in the 1920s sold its scrap steel to Japan and England’s Rolls Royce sold aircraft engines and factories to Hitler. America also imported lots of cheap labor in the 1920’s. We all know how that turned out.

    Another great depression and world war anyone? That’s where we are headed.

  • Glob Design

    All the way from Pakistan:

    HOW INDIA DESTROYED US ECONOMY: How Indian IT Industry and H1B Visa

    Workers Take American Jobs and Scam US Industry & Government

    http://pakistanthinktank.org/from-the-horses-mouth-how-indian-it-industry-and-h1b-visa-workers-take-american-jobs-and-scam-us-industry-government

  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design

    PhDs, Bachelor’s degrees on sale in Punjab

    Now you know why the American economy is really collapsing.

    http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/phds-bachelors-degrees-on-sale-in-punjab-463936

  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design

    Hindu Indian takeover of the best US jobs

    http://johndenugent.com/news/hindu-indian-takeover-of-the-best-us-jobs

    “The New World Order liars told us decades ago when they were closing the steel mills here in Pittsburgh that the high-paying skilled jobs would always stay here in the USA; only the unskilled and low-wage jobs would go overseas.

    They lied, they lie, they ALWAYS will lie.”

  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design
  • Glob Design

    In Oz, Immigration Department audits reveal large-scale fraud of visa system by Indian students and workers

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-22/immigration-audits-reveal-large-scale-visa-fraud/4833710

  • Glob Design

    Indian-born Duke/Harvard Professor Wadhwa (aka ‘Fraudwa’, aka ‘Fraudy’ ) Says There Is No Skilled Worker Shortage

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9910492

  • Glob Design

    Professor Wadhwa (a.k.a. ‘Fraudhwa’) and India, Inc. must be referring to “immigrant entrepreneurs” such as Fusion Garage CEO Chandra Rathakrishnan who sucked $40 million of American venture capital money out of the US before closing up shop.

    This conman and his Indian team in Singapore conned Michael Arrington of TechCrunch into funding them to build a tablet computer for TC.

    Of course it never went anywhere, never worked, and was a total flop. Another great India, Inc. scam ripping off America.

    Another $40 million thrown down the India, Inc. Rathole for nothing.

    Now you know why we have things in America such as “the credit crisis” – we’re throwing away our valuable capital and sending it offshore to 3rd world scammers like this.

    And you can bet most of that $ went to foreign workers who got paid and sent all the $ home regardless of their failure:

    Fusion Garage, The Guys Behind The CrunchPad, Are Officially Done And Owe Creditors $40 Million

    http://www.businessinsider.com/fusion-garage-the-guys-behind-the-crunchpad-are-officially-dead-and-owe-creditors-40-million-2012-1

  • Glob Design

    HOW INDIA’S GRIFTOLOGY RACKET OPERATES

    In a nutshell, here is how India’s griftology racket works:

    1) Hire foreign Public Relations
    firms in the target country to start pumping out “news” stories that
    the natives are too dumb, can’t survive without Indian workers, etc.

    2) Using the above propaganda, change the minds of the natives to accept an invasion of Indian workers.

    3) Have your IT lobby (NASSCOM) in this
    case bribe officials in the target country to create a guest worker
    visa program under the guise of admitting skilled immigrants.

    4) Infiltrate companies and get into positions of management. Throw American managers out of work DELIBERATELY.

    5) Tell natives they have to TRAIN the
    incoming supposedly-skilled Indian workers so they can attempt to do the
    jobs. If they refuse, fire them immediately.

    6) Once trained, fire the native workers anyway under the lie that they are too stupid, aren’t capable, etc. – even if they were the ones who invented the industry!

    7) Take over all the jobs and pretend
    to do them. Collapse as many companies as possible over time in order to
    lower the prestige of the target country.

    8) Siphon as much money out of the companies and send it back home via remittances to the tune of $50 billion a year or more.

    9) Have Indian managers protect the
    incompetent incoming Indian workers to effect maximum griftology. Bribe
    the American execs with huge payoffs to allow it to continue if you have
    to.

    10) Hire some faking mouthpieces like
    Vivek Wadhwa to go on TV and in print in the target country to promote
    how brilliant Indian workers are and how stupid the natives are.

    11) Call any native who opposes the plan or who tries to expose it a RACIST.

    12) Steal as many skills and as much
    tech as you can from the target country and then send those people home
    to India to try to recreate the business there.

    13) By stealing all the target
    country’s industrial secrets, and by keeping the natives out of those
    jobs, increase Indian knowledge and decrease natives’ knowledge.

    14) Grab everything that isn’t nailed
    down and send it back to India so India can compete against other
    countries – which it couldn’t compete against before.

    The India, Inc. con is nothing more
    than a masterful deception on a massive scale: get millions of Indians
    into other countries and rob them while claiming to be “masters of IT”.

    Now you know why the US and
    world economies are such a total mess! Before 1998 the US wouldn’t even
    trade with these people – and this is why!

  • asdfasdfasdfasfd

    u have the mental stability and knowledge of a failed dumb 8th grader: India is not a “communist country”, and by 1998 Russia had not been a communist country for a long time, and China was a defactor capitalist country.

    looking at your other posts ? “White males are the best in IT ” ?? lol how pathetic and childish. that email you pasted above really accurately described you. Sorry princess you kept that email since 2010 ? I’m sorry for the emotional trauma it brought u.

    • Mumbai Job Robber

      We’re sorry that you come from a diseased and corrupt country, but we’d still like to see you go back. We don’t need you bringing your chalta hai attitude of entitlement to our shores, and we’re not obligated to deal with it. Go home now H1B scab

      • marte48

        This is probably what the Indians said to the Brits.

    • marte48

      If you are so patriotic to India, why are you here?

    • marte48

      why so much insulting language? all of you guys should turn down the volume.

  • dead_dragon

    Wow that escalated quickly – in no time the comments section has become a heated debate of immigration policy dotted with racial attacks.

    For those who said immigrants are stealing your jobs, don’t forget lots of jobs are created by immigrants. According to Forbes, 40% of Fortune 100 companies are founded by either immigrants or their children.

    • Mumbai Job Robber

      The middle-class creates jobs by buying things and making purchases, and H1B scabs are destroying the middle-class. And besides dumb-dumb, H1B’s don’t come here to create companies, and H1B is NOT AN IMMIGRANT VISA, IT’S A TEMPORARY WORK VISA – GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD. America doesn’t owe H1B scabs a job. “Temporary”, as in GO HOME NOW

      • Whamadoodle

        Is your own heritage Native American? If not, then shouldn’t you be screaming at yourself to “GO HOME NOW”?

        The arrogance of people screaming and yelling about how others should be kept out, while they themselves are only fat and happy because they or their ancestors were allowed in, is the very definition of hypocrisy.

        Besides which, the poster is correct: immigrants CREATE jobs.

        • Mumbai Job Robber

          that moron argument again…better idea: stay in your own country ( where you belong, the one you demanded independence for ), put effort into cleaning up your own house, take responsibility for yourself, and then you won’t have to go around begging and stealing from everyone else – problem solved. I don’t care what mama-gi and daddy-gi told you growing up, you don’t have a right to come here. Citizens here decide that, not scab H1B’s..deal with it

          • Whamadoodle

            I was born in America, thanks. But please go home yourself, to wherever YOUR ancestors came from.

            Otherwise, you are a hypocrite.

        • John80224

          Non-starter argument. Policy and law deal primarily with today. Hopefully we learn lessons from the past, but the government that holds sway over the land is the authority of that land. It may not suit your fancy and maybe there’s even a moral or philosophical argument, but thousands of years of human history across the planet are not on your side on this one.

          re: “immigrants CREATE jobs”, immigrants do create jobs, destroy jobs, give money, steal money, kill people, heal people, just like native born. To make such a broad sweeping statement is to completely miss the primary problems and challenges with the currently perverted policy.

          • Whamadoodle

            Non-starter argument. You argue that “the government that holds sway over the land is the authority of that land,” but then claim their policy is perverted when it suits you, thus objecting to that same authority that you just got through asserting for them.

            Also, you fail to specify what problems exist with current policy, so no one reading your post has any way of knowing 1) whether they agree with you about the extent of such problems, or even if they are problems at all; or 2) what you propose to do about them.

            Finally, you fail to refute my assertion: immigrants do create jobs, and that is a fact. Other posters are asserting that they do not (one even farcically claims that only illegal immigrants are entrepreneurs, but that once they have legal status to work here, they are uninterested in entrepreneurship, but only want to work for someone else’s companies). It is a simple fact, and one measured by scientific study, that even immigrant populations containing millions of poor are a net positive to a developed host country’s economy, not only through their entrepreneurship, but simply on the taxation versus benefits balance sheet:

            http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

          • John80224

            No, I didn’t say the government has created a perverted policy, you read into my admittedly imprecise statement. My statement was to point out the INTENT of the policy has been perverted into primarily a cheap labor tool mostly by corporations–much like the luxury SUV tax was intended to give the small construction worker-type company a leg up became a way for well-paid execs to get cheaper Escalades.

            I’ll come back to edify you further when I have a bit more time later.

          • Whamadoodle

            Ah. No problem. However, in that case, I should also note that my statement about none of us or few of us here being Native American was merely something I said in reaction to the people screaming “foreigners go home!” in the comments below.

            For instance, such people would (and routinely do) say those words to small children they call “anchor babies,” because they were only the first generation born here.

            However, I myself am in the first generation of MY family that was born here. I am legally a citizen, just like any “anchor baby” is. Am I supposed to “go home” to the European countries my ancestors were from, too?

          • John80224

            The anchor babies syndrome is an issue I don’t have great answers for, though I have some sense that it should cause some revisiting of what constitutes automatic citizenship going forward. That said, I’m not deeply versed in that side of the immigration debate, but I think you’d have a hard time finding me stating we should “send dem ferners home” that have already been granted visas, citizenship or whatever other policies they fit under. For example, if all my below provisions magically happened, I would support a phasing in and grandfathering to honor the deals the country has made.

            To what I needed more time to lay out…

            The worst abuses of the visa also constitute the majority of the corporate cap. The current offshoring model needs to be destroyed. Note I said current model. I’m not foolish enough to think that we can just close our eyes and pretend there’s no global economy out there. We just don’t need to disadvantage ourselves intentionally.

            Offshoring has acted almost with impunity practicing many forms of illegal discrimination for well over a decade as well as skirting pay and work conditions laws. Worse still, they not only discriminate against women, older workers and non-south Asians, but they discriminate against citizens. How can a country that won’t (on paper) allow citizens to discriminate against other citizens on various grounds find it acceptable so long as it’s foreign interests doing so against its own citizens?

            Then there’s the treatment of the workers. They are semi-indentured. On paper, they can transfer visas. In practice, it’s difficult to job hunt working 80 hours a week and when your prospective pool is diminished when there are immigration concerns. They are also significantly underpaid by most accounts and searches through the LCA data can go along way in confirming that point.

            Marquee tech companies don’t get a gold star. They use the visa program as a crutch. When a recruiter can assume 60% of Ivy League candidates are worth a second look, but that number drops to 40% at solid state schools, they want to go with higher percentages, perhaps an IIT or other external, higher percentage options. I understand their motivation, but it’s not up to national law to make their hiring process simpler.

            It’s probably safe to guess MS laid off at least hundreds of domestic technologists in their 18,000 layoffs last year. Yet weeks later were right back on Capitol Hill begging for more imports.

            To fix it, here are some front-runners for me:
            1. Set a reasonable fee, say, around $30K. I know it sounds like a lot on paper, but these supposedly must have roles can easily approach half a million dollars during the visa’s three year span once all factors are counted. (Sidebar: apply those funds to training/schooling, enforcement and otherwise improving domestic preparation.)

            2. Make the visas more legitimately portable. Variations include longer grace period between jobs or somehow decoupling the visa from employers.

            3. Set real prevailing wages and realign them to the regional market regularly. Related, require hiring across bands–no more wage arbitrage by hiring almost exclusively from lowest pay rates.

            4. Cap visa dependence.

            5. Enforce the laws. It should be more viable to file a complaint and have it investigated. I know that could be dangerous if taken too far, but the pendulum is far too much on InfoSys’ side.

            To the job creation, I read your linked article, but know nothing of that study. Overall, there’s some merit to the argument, but many factors are often unrealized in these studies, particularly when Partnership for a New American Economy publishes them.

            For example, I received unemployment for a couple months and only last year returned to the compensation I’d been at five years prior. I’ve easily netted the collective governments $100K less than I would have otherwise produced.

            Or say you have a case like Southern Cal Edison. (The following numbers are extrapolations of similar cases and meant for example, not claimed to be necessarily this one case.) The studies typically show how the 200 H-1Bs bring $12 million in earnings to the region. What they do not address is what the 500 laid off workers’ impact is. On average they will follow my path–some unemployment followed by the job they can land under duress and probably at lower pay. Studies will also omit considerations like World Bank estimated Indians now remitting back to India at a rate of $70 billion annually. I understand why they would and don’t fault them, but nonetheless that is not money fueling a local economy.

            Overall, I very much think there’s a place for immigration and done well it can produce jobs, etc. Our current application of the policy, though, has more holes than substance.

          • Whamadoodle

            I agree with a lot of what you say, including the fact that we shouldn’t go luddite on globalization (although just opening the greenhouse to the icy winds of the race to the wage bottom makes me… want to mix metaphors in with the greenhouse one), and that our tech giants are very exploitative (see Amazon’s vicious timing of people’s impacted-bowel-inducingly-rare bathroom breaks).

            Above all, though, I think that it’s the arrogance that pervades the immigrations debates that always bothers me. Everyone is always reacting egotistically and using the debate as an occasion to strut and peacock around and exclude people. Eventually, we will need the people we now treat arrogantly.

      • dead_dragon

        America doesn’t owe you a job either. Capitalism doesn’t care what color your skin is or where you were born. All it cares is where to find the most skilled workers to make the most profit. You can yell at them to GO HOME all you want, but if you’re not the competent lot, the loser is gonna be you, H1B or not.

    • Skip Conrad

      We are all children of immigrants, so the statement loses it’s meaning. It’s like – well, so what?

      • MOnkinSF

        The Native American were also wiped out when the European first immigrated to America.

        • Mumbai Job Robber

          what the hell does that have to do with the price of curry in India ???

          • Whamadoodle

            It means that one is stupid if one says “immigrants go home.” Because YOUR family is an immigrant family.

            Pretty simple, but happy to explain it. Got it now, troll guy?

          • jurgispilis

            By you logic thane it’s ok to say: “I was born here – you weren’t – you go home”.

          • Whamadoodle

            No, by my logic, EVERYONE is welcome here.

            The person I was replying to was the one who was screaming “GO HOME,” as you can see if you read his comments below.

      • dead_dragon

        That means, blaming immigrants for one’s own incompetence is stupid.

    • John80224

      I’m curious what you think that statistic teaches about the issue. Also was it Forbes saying Fortune 100’s or Forbes quoting Partnership for a New American Economy’s stat about 40% of Fortune 500 companies?

      • dead_dragon

        OK so it’s Forbes quoting PNAE. My point is immigrants don’t just “steal” jobs, they create jobs. Without immigrants, America will be nowhere near where it is today.

        • John80224

          Didn’t mean to be overly critical on the source just making sure I’m speaking to what I think I’m addressing. But the stat can be VERY misleading. On casual reading, it can appear as though immigrants are nearly four times as successful in creating jobs as native born. what that study actually points to is nothing special over the long run. Please don’t take that as immigrants are bad, but PNAE’s studies are designed to play out the superhuman story.

          • dead_dragon

            Oh no I am not using that stats to glorify the immigrants for more than what they deserve. I am just tired of seeing all the xenophobic people who think the country owe them a good job and good pay without really looking into the mirror lately.

            I am also aware of the shady practices of companies taking advantage of the H1B visa situation. But to blame the H1B visa holders for that, it’s almost like blaming a victim for the crime.

            Let’s go to the extreme and hypothesize that we’ll be eliminating the H1B visa system. What good does that do for us? The next Google’s founder will start their business in Singapore, Sweden, or any other country with open arms for skilled workers. We’ll struggle to fill our Silicon Valley jobs with people who can barely do calculus.

    • Whamadoodle

      Yes, the racism on display is truly idiotic. Virtually everyone here had ancestors who were immigrants, so you’d have to be pretty stupid to advance a xenophobic argument against guest workers (but that never stops the xenophobic, I guess).

      Also, you’re correct: all the morons of the world always claim “oh, those immigrants are job-takers”; but immigrants are also entrepreneurs! They create just as many jobs, or more.

      • jurgispilis

        The only reason they are entrepreneurs, is that they are not able to legally work in this country. The legal ones, with a visa, join a company.

        • Whamadoodle

          You are incorrect. I don’t know where you got your information from–obviously, you made it up from your own head. But in fact, legal immigrants MAKE companies, they don’t only join them, as the Economist points out:

          http://www.economist.com/node/21564564

    • John80224

      Since you didn’t come back to answer, I’ll assume you’re misquoting Forbes’ quoting PNAE about the F500.

      What that statistic teaches us is over the long run immigrants have been somewhere in the rough vicinity of performing on par with their native counterparts in terms of founding successful companies.

      • dead_dragon

        I am not saying immigrants create more jobs than their “native” counterparts. I am just pointing out they’re here to just “steal” jobs.

    • Skip Conrad

      Comments about Indians are not racial attacks. They”re fellow Caucasians.

      • dead_dragon

        Yeah right, comments about African Americans can’t be racial attacks either cause they’re fellow Americans.

  • Whamadoodle

    Would you please stop spamming? Other people deserve a voice here, and it’s really annoying when you post a dozen posts to try to be the only one speaking and shout everyone else down. If you’re here to have a monologue instead of a dialogue, please leave and start your own blog.

    • Mumbai Job Robber

      so don’t read the posts if you don’t like it, the internet is about free expression, not like in india where they attempt to suppress important information about gang-rape: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-31749524

  • marte48

    wow, I think I’ll copy this to your boss at Collabera.

  • marte48

    All political systems – capitalism and communism alike – and everything in between – are exploited by the wealthy and powerful. Population (read that OVER-population) pressures force wages down and prices up. “Workers of the world, unite!” Instead of competing – which is only beneficial to the powerful class – we should be supporting each other. The powerful WANT us to kill each other off. They use us to engineer THEIR success and protect THEIR interests. History repeats itself. The quest for power only leads to dictators and wars. Only the distribution of power – not the consolidation of power – leads to peace. Engineers only build the weapons of their own destruction at the behest of the powerful.

    • MOnkinSF

      Someone demands the middle class to distribute wealth using his/her sheer power. Was distribution of power ever mentioned? What does executive order or veto mean to you ?

      • marte48

        My fathers and uncles fought and died in WWII against Nazism and Fascism. They unionized and worked for the rights of the working class – the class that makes employers wealthy. If you want to defend the ultra powerful as though they would defend YOU, keep on expressing your misinformed opinions. Even Bill Gates and Warren Buffet agree that the working class has been getting the shaft.

        • marte48

          Executive orders and vetoes can be overturned by 2/3 vote of Congress – if something is in the best interest of common citizens, and not just the ultra wealthy corporations.

          • marte48

            The problem is that money controls politics.

          • jurgispilis

            what about executive action and memos, that are not executive orders? Can they be overturned by 2/3rds of the legislature?

          • marte48

            you can google that information. you can also see how many executive orders were made by each president. GBush made many more than Obama. Have you noticed how much criticism Obama is getting for his – and for not going to war as quickly as Bush did?

          • marte48

            As a rule of thumb, those who hate the federal government the most are the ones who lost the Civil War. The same ones hate Obama – see any connection?

    • asdfasdfasdfasfd

      Did u just time travel back from 1960 communist CCCP? Your Marxist slogans are too far fetched even for this lefty radio

      • marte48

        did you just travel back from the 50’s?

  • marte48

    This is due to the greed of American companies.

  • marte48

    Employers love it when engineers fight each other – rather than them.

  • marte48

    I posted this to Collabera Facebook.

  • MOnkinSF

    I used to tune in for NPR when I drove. In the last two years, I would have to stop that habit. The NPR is no longer neutral or independent. When the media wants to pass a bill so that the middle class pay the illegal immigrants, the legally undocumented, they interviewed these illegal immigrants. Did they interview the middle class families that are living from pay check to pay check because 30 to 50% of their income are already turned to to the government? When the media wants to pass a bill so that the middle class pay for preschool for everyone, they interview a single mother who failed to plan her life and who already received WIC and subsidy, also the numerous family with more than 4,5 kids. Did they interview the middle class family who could only afford to have 2 to 3 kids because they could not pay the preschool tuition, college tuition? I feel sad for these poor families. However awarding them equals encouraging the irresponsible behavior in this society.

    • MOnkinSF

      It is more effective to find the father and ask for child support instead of asking tax payer to pay the child care.

  • asdfasdfasdfasfd

    Here is how to be competitive again in the newly booming tech industry: start very early from your own elementary schools: the mass media ( the likes of Justin bieber and his little “girlfriend” which is no more than a human bubble head you set up by media companies to grab the minds of kids) has been perpetuating a culture that highly values flashy limelight, partying, fratboys-style lives, kids are inundated with the hidden message that these are the “cool” things to do. STEM – loving students are cast into the stereotypes of “nerds”, and if u are Asian, congratulations, you are even more of the quintessential nerd.

    But guess what, society rewards you based on your utility, and turns out that “nerds” do possess some valuable , very valuable skills , and it’s even more urgently needed in the tech boom. Hence the football team jocks which were so popular at a time end up flipping burgers and the “nerds” land a job in silicon valley after 6 hard years through college and grad school. Basketball players seem to have fancy lifestyles but the are only < 1000 positions in the NBA, what really counts is the real, practical jobs that need STEM

    China has a 1500 history of a formal selection process based on learning and exams. It certainly has its drawbacks, but it does instilled a culture that values and respects disciplined , hard learning.
    So to some of the bitching and whining losers here , when u complain, look across ur cube and look at ur Chinese or Indian coworker and think whether u were partying while he is busting ass doing schoolwork

    • MOnkinSF

      Another native asked my why I went to grad school. pursuing advance education, which is such a natural desire back in my country, turns out to be a strange thing for these “native American”.

      • John80224

        Yes I did ask, but to say it’s a strange thing, is a mischaracterization of the question. I don’t at all support the Bieber/Kardashian fluff mentality to which the OP speaks and as I replied to you below, if there is a purpose to the additional formal education then I find it completely natural. And that “purpose” can simply be because one is passionate about it.

        But your comment reads to me (and I may myself be projecting) that it is a foregone conclusion that hours in classrooms and labs are presupposed across the board as the only viable path to knowledge, enlightenment and superiority. I’ve known many PhD’s who were no brighter and nor capable in their craft than I am in mine. It is an accomplishment to be sure. But now you seem to be projecting your own cultural biases assuming that the path most revered in your culture is the only acceptable one.

        • MOnkinSF

          There are always outliners. I never said formal education if the only way. Among all the ways to Rome, I believe there are ways fast or slow, steep or flat. Formal education is the certain way to obtain a certain amount of knowledge. Of course, there are more to expect when one join the industry. Why would one take the uncertainty? Either one lack the desire to succeed or one is too complacent to learn.

          One Hundred years ago, our schools were called grammar schools. High school education could be sufficient then. Nowadays, high school diploma could land you nowhere.

          Of course, if one is not to make a living from engineering, one could argue the formal education is not necessary. I believe Human being advances because they accumulate their experience and call them knowledge.

  • Xisy Xisy

    Come on, check which country takes most of H1 visa in 2014? your guy talking about “Asian”, this included Taiwan, Japanese, Malaysia and Chinese, I don’t think they like USA; especially Chinese, they are more richer than your talker

    • MOnkinSF

      I think the problem is not about H1B program. But the stealth contractor companies, recruiters and those individuals who make up fake certificates, diploma and fake working experience. These under qualified candidates get H1B with fake documents. They should be deported.

  • saasadm

    KQED is so biased. It just repeats the corporate propaganda without doing any investigative report.

    The problem of H-1B exploitation is world-famous. Check this out, it’s from one of United Kingdom’s major newspapers, the Guardian — winner of the prestigious Pulitzer prize in journalism. They invented a new word in the English language — Techsploitation to describe the indentured-servitude going on the tech industry in Silicon Valley. They even create a whole comic strip for it. I just love the British sense of humor

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/28/-sp-techsploitation-labor-trafficking-graphic-novel

    I trust the Guardian a whole lot more than the figure from the B. institute that says H-1B earns 26% more than American engineers. Give me a break, Facebook et all is giving to B. institute to make up this figure.

  • Alice Blue
    • MOnkinSF

      It is not about immigrants. it is about the liars. It is time to tighten up the screening process to filter out the scam.

  • Tyagi

    It would have been so much better had we not divided this world into countries, religions and races.

  • Tyagi

    Also please have a look at unemployment for college graduates is at 2.7%, its very low and no industry or economy can have price stability and sustainable growth if there in no labor infusion from outside.
    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

    Also look at

    Many estimates suggest that the long-run normal level of the unemployment rate–the level that the unemployment rate would be expected to converge to in the next 5 to 6 years in the absence of shocks to the economy–is in a range between 5 and 6 percent. Policymakers’ judgments about the long-run normal rate of unemployment in the Summary of Economic Projections are generally in this range as well. For example, in the most recent projections, FOMC participants’ estimates of the longer-run normal rate of unemployment had a central tendency of 5.2 percent to 5.5 percent.

    from http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/economy_14424.htm

    Point I am trying to make is US economy needs labor from outside, its sheer economics. Opinions driven from an individual’s perspective cant lead to sound policy decisions.

    I also want to add that any immigration policy abuse like H1 abuse by sweatshops should be stopped but saying that the entire program of getting controlled amount labor from outside US is absurd.

  • maraba2

    There are already at least 600000 H-1B in this country (almost 75% from India). Now the spouses on H-4 will also be able to compete for jobs. This order by Obama is plain treachery as far as native workers are concerned, Bring them on one status, then suddenly change the rules and force of glut of workers in this country. This was Obama’s answer to Jennifer Wedel’s question in Arizona when she asked why her husband was laid off for an H-1B worker! Imagine, he came to this conclusion after months of soul-searching…. The problem is Republicans are even worse – Orrin Hatch sponsored the new bill to increase H1B. Initially this flood of H-1B was started by a myth: “STEM shortage”… It was very effectively perpetrated by rich owners like Gates and Zuckerberg. It worked but then people understood it was SCAM and very systematic study has debunked this nonsense. There is no shortage and the only reason the H-1B system remains is to depress worker wages, kill the domestic tech industry and has resulted in massive age discrimination.. Sad, but our politicians are sell-outs to lobbyists and we have no hope!

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