(JACK GUEZ/AFP/Getty Images)

Israeli troops initiated a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip on Thursday, escalating a conflict that has raged for 10 days. The latest round of violence has claimed the lives of more than 200 Palestinians, mostly civilians. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Israel Defense Forces will strike infrastructure and operatives posing a danger to Israeli citizens. We talk with Middle East analyst Aaron David Miller and foreign correspondent Nicholas Casey about the ground offensive.

Guests:
Aaron David Miller, vice president for new initiatives and distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars; author of forthcoming "The End of Greatness"
Nicholas Casey, foreign correspondent for The Wall Street Journal

  • colinvgallagher

    Apologists for Israel like Mr. Miller invariably blame the victim by stating that the Israeli Defense Forces have had to kill innocent civilians, such as the 4 boys killed on the beach in Gaza this week (where no observers had seen any rocket launchers), as a response to missile attacks launched from the Gaza Strip. By the same standard, wouldn’t it have been justified for the Nazis to treat the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto as they had, by punishing an entire population as a necessary response to the actions of a few insurgents?

    • Bill_Woods

      Wow, Godwin’s Law strikes in the very first comment.

      • SeanInhanity

        If the shoe fits…

      • Sam Badger

        You know, referencing Hitler and the Nazis isn’t actually a fallacy, whether or not the comparison is fair.

    • ES Trader

      What do you call people that send out suicide bombers on buses and cars and use their own people as camouflage to launch their missiles indiscriminately.

      Have you ever witnessed a child throwing objects and hitting another child then running to hide behind a big brother ?

      If you dont recognize what Hamas & Hezbollah have sponsored and committed over the decades as cowardly, terrorist acts, then its obvious why we will never agree on anything

  • Peter

    On December 3, 2009, your guest, Aaron David Miller, spoke at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco and said:
    “Over the next 4 to 8 years, the two-state solution will either come to fruition or it will join what the previous administration on another issue called the dustbin of history.” *
    It’s been almost five years since he made that prediction. Has the two-state solution idea by now been consigned to the dustbin of history? If yes, what do we do now? If no, how much time is left?

    * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycv8SXGH9Ws#t=47m22s

  • pm05

    The Israelis make it very obvious that they want to destroy the Palestinians. So, what is the difference. Hamas is fighting against occupation, Israelis want to kill them all! They want (and have) taken the Palestinians land, freedom, life. Why do we in the US support this? I do NOT!

    • ES Trader

      Hamas wants to stay in power vs Hezbollah or any other factions that we aren’t aware of as yet.

      Hamas has no regard for the people they are supposed to be leading,

      Relevant recent developments makes clear that Middle East in general is a power struggle by various Muslim ideologues with their interpretation of Quaran that suits their goals with Israel and the U.S. as convenient enemies that have been successfully brainwashed into the illiterate, uninformed masses that cling to beliefs of the Dark Ages.

      • Sam Badger

        You complain about “illiterate uninformed masses” without, apparently, being aware that Hezbollah has absolutely no presence in Gaza and is a LEBANESE resistance movement, not a Palestinian one.

        As for the Dark Ages, it was Arab culture which preserved Greek culture and brought modern thought to Europe, and it was Europe who went in with guns and destroyed the Ottoman Empire before ruling and exploiting the Middle East for a few decades before supporting violent, reactionary governments across the area. But hey who cares about history when our racist assumptions work when facts don’t support our position.

        • ES Trader

          True duiring the Dark Ages, the Middle East was more civilized and advanced than Europe but then everything STOPPED, so what has it done for me lately, besides pump oil

          • Sam Badger

            “what has it done for me” is a very poor metric for another’s civilization.

            Also the notion that Arab society has not developed since the Dark Ages is a classic, and false, orientalist caricature.

          • ES Trader

            In my lifetime there was the ’76 Olympic hostage, the hijacked plane in Entebbe, the Achille Lauro, the 1st WTC bombing, 911, and Boston Marathon, the fatwa by the Aytollah on Salman Rushdie, the stabbing and shooting of Theo Van Gogh,Daniel Pearl beheading, the death by rocks of adulters, the underwear bomber, the Islamist that hacked a British soldier to death. the list is endless

            Realists like, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, aren’t safe because of Islamists interpretation of the Quaran

            Idiots

          • Sam Badger

            I’m aware of all those acts and more, but most Arabs were not directly responsible for those deeds any more than most Americans, Russians, Brits, Chinese, Israelis etc are directly responsible for the crimes of their governments or reactionary institutions. In fact, al-Qaeda would not exist if it was not for the US-Saudi alliance against Soviet and Iranian influence. Lest we forget, Afghan Mujihadeen (as well as African anti-communist warlords who committed vicious human rights abuses) were called “freedom fighters” by Ronald Reagan and the GOP, and even by many American Democrats too.

            As for Mrs Hirsi Ali, not all Muslims share the same religious and traditional practices, and many of their beliefs are based in political or traditional ideologies independent of their religion (like FGM which Mrs Ali, as far as I understand was a victim of, and which is not mentioned in the Koran or in traditional Islamic law/philosophy ONCE, ever, anywhere, and is practiced not only by Muslims but by Christians and traditional African religions)

            FYI the first suicide bombing against Israel was done by a secular Arab CHRISTIAN in the Marxist-Leninist PFLP, and not by a Muslim Arab. And to understand their acts, we must not read into the religious text but the historical circumstances which Arabs faced in the colonial and post-colonial world. For isntance, most Arab Palestinians who lived in what is now Israel fled, and the ISraeli government has not let them return ot their land since the 40s because of the fear that it would “distort” the Jewish nature of the Israeli state. Moreover, over 60% of the West Bank has been claimed by settlers or the IDF and the previous Arab owners have been denied any right to their land, either to live on or to farm. Settlers routinely destroy Arab olive crops and even attack Arab civilians, yet are not stopped by the IDF OR the Palestinian police, which in theory are supposed to protect the Palestinian people. We must remember these facts when we complain about the violence of Palestinian militants. Even if we condemn it, we must understand its historical roots. Anything else risks us falling into racist discourses about why militancy in the West Bank and Gaza exists. I don’t think you are unique or a bad human being or stupid or uninformed or whatever, I am just critiquing the way you are using particular events to caricature Arabs (unintentionally or otherwise)

          • Another Mike

            In my lifetime there was the assassination of British diplomat Lord Iveagh and the assassination of UN diplomat Count Bernadotte. Leaders of the terrorist groups responsible became honored Prime Ministers.

        • EIDALM

          It is fact that Sam Badger lives in the Dark Age ,because he did not know that is exactly what Hitler said about Jews.

          • Sam Badger

            What? That doesn’t even make sense. Are you denying the historical reality of colonialism, or that Saddam Hussein and the Shah were supported by the CIA and MI6? Saying Westerners were Imperialists is not equivalent to antisemitism. On the contrary, the Germans were objectively Imperialistic themselves.

  • Victor

    The basic difference is that Israel has the capacity to destroy Palestinians but doesn’t have the will to harm civilians. Hamas has the will to destroy all Israelis (that’s their officially stated goal), but doesn’t have the capacity. How hard is it to see?

    • Another Mike

      Israel’s goal is to maintain the status quo.

  • Another Mike

    For perspective on why Hamas started launching rockets, read Nathan Thrall’s op-ed in today’s NY Times.

    • Victor

      Great article, thank you for pointing to it.

  • ES Trader

    When a home is invaded by termites, what does a concerned homeowner do ?

    The Middle East is littered with various Islamic factions, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, ISIS(?) that ALL have their agenda for power like termites, ants, cockroaches, rats have their self interest.

    Most of the Arab world is illiterate, uninformed and hold onto Dark Age thinking that their leaders espouse.

    The anti-Israeli views expressed too often in this venue is appalling.

    The entire Bay Area cannot be as naive as that.

    Accusations of media bias, collusion between US & Israeli governments, these conspiratists likely still believe that Apollo 11 moon landing was a Hollywood production & that Big Brother is flying around in black helicopters.

    Their student visa’s should be revoked and deported back Afghanistan, Gaza or whatever their origin

    • Another Mike

      Hopefully not all of Israel’s supporters regard the Palestinians as subhuman, insects.

      • SeanInhanity

        I wonder how it would go over if Jews were compared to termites, ants, cockroaches and rats? Is that acceptable commentary on KQED’s message board? But If you are Arab or Muslim, any smear in defense of Israel is acceptable.

      • ES Trader

        There you go again, as Reagan once said,

        You inferred that I called Palestinians insects.

        All I asked was what would you do when tunnels were dug into your home with no intent for benefit to you.

        But I guess the truth hurts

    • Sam Badger

      Kiyoshi is exhibiting exactly the kind of deep colonialist psychosis which Franz Fanon so effectively described and critiqued. Anti-Israeli views are seen as “appalling” while mundane anti-Arab racism like false claims regarding the literacy of the Arab world is seen as somehow acceptable.

      In fact, the literacy rate in Palestine is over 90% … the Gaza Strip included. If it was not for the violence of occupation, Palestine would be one of the most modern and sophisticated parts of the Middle East, like Israel today. Unfortunately, people are too blinded by anti-Arab bigotry to understand that.

      • ES Trader

        You must be reading from the same playbook as W did whrn the neo-cons claims were that Iraqi’s would welcome us with “open arms” because they are really civilized, sophisticated people.

        Should have sensed that isn’t likely with their attitudes about dogs.

        You should be making the claim instead that the Israeli flyers warning of bombings were just Israeli propoganda because likely the majority of Palestinians could not read it !

        Arab society portrayed as modern and sophisticated ?! Read ” What Went Wrong”

        But if they are literate,why don’t they read the Quaran and show where it says killling is acceptable,

        • Sam Badger

          What “neocon playbook” wants Western powers to stop meddling in Arab affairs? What “neocon playbook” rejects the assumption that Western democracy needs to impose “democracy” and capitalism by force on the 3rd world? Do you even know what a “neocon” is?

          I don’t care to challenge your silly bigotry and racism regarding Arab culture, as a simple Google or Wikipedia search will reveal the complexity and diversity of the Arab world, culture and history. I already showed your silliness regarding the “illiteracy” of Arabs. Needless to say, the exact same kinds of statements you make about Arabs were made by Western Imperialists to justify racism and colonialism towards Black Africans, Indians, East Asians, and indigenous Americans, and they were no more ignorant than your words.

          The most atrocious acts in recent history have been done by modern, Imperialist, “Civilized”, “Democratic” Western countries, not Arabs or any other colonized/”ex-colonized” people. The US, France, Britain, Russia, Japan and Germany have far more blood on their hands than the whole Arab world. Moreover, it is the foreign policies of those countries which are responsible for keeping the Arab world poor after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Who ran those countries from 1918-1945, and placed most of the local governments in power through backing violent dictators and military coups? Who bombed Arab cities, gave their worst dictators like Saddam chemical weapons, and who gave financial and military support to the most conservative elements of Salafi Islam to fight the Soviets?

          • ES Trader

            Bigotry by definition is a product of prejudice or pre-conceved.

            1) Israel left Gaza nearly 10 years ago.

            2) Palestinians elected their own government

            3) That government chose to construct tunnels for smuggling in weapons.

            4) Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel and to kill ALL Jews.

            5) Hamas positions rocket launchers near hospitals and schools

            Did I dream or imagine these things ?

            So your emotional prejudicial charge that I am a bigoted racist must be the summation of your inability to recognize facts and need to label any criticism contrary to your erroneous beliefs

          • Sam Badger

            The point is you are prejudicing Palestinians and Arabs based on your cherry picking without providing context. You falsely accuse them of illiteracy and savagery. You could do the same thing with Americans. America supported death squads in Central America and Africa, helped Saddam to use chemical weapons, elected their own government, destroyed numerous cultures based on racist assumptions and so on. These are all historical facts. So I guess all Americans are violent, illiterate racists? That is why you are prejudiced.

            Also Hamas’s charter technically does not call for the killing of all Jews despite its support for various racist canards (you are right about their desire to destroy Israel, but destroying a government is not the same as killing its people), and Israel has kept Gaza under blockade for many years, so your list of “facts” are oversimplifications. Are there Arabs who are racist to Jews? Of course! Are all Arabs racist to Jews? No! Are there Jews who are racist to Arabs? Yes! Are all Jews racist to Arabs? No. I don’t prejudice Israelis or Arabs, but you are very quick to judge all Arabs and Palestinians based on your comments.

          • ES Trader

            Your accusation that I said All Arabs are evil is a figment of your emotionally charged imagination.

            I have commented on many occasions regarding this matter that the claim is that Israel is 100% pure or that Palestinians are 100% bad.

            Every conflict has two sides and I agree with you that Americans and American history is stained.

            However at some point whatever happened yesterday must be put to rest and cannot be leveraged into perpetual conflict.

            Mexican nationalists are not launching missiles into Southern California and incessantly advocating the return of the southwest.

            I don’t live is Israel so I dont have empirical experience of the Palestinian life in either Israel or Gaza.

            What i know is that Israel left Gaza more than 5 years ago and allowed the formation of its own government. A government that shoots missiles randomly into Israel, a government that makes statements about the kidnappers as “national heroes”, uses its people as human shields for seemingly propoganda reasons,

            These are not the actions of a group that I can support and everyone, Arab people included, should have enough moral courage and conviction to call them out.

          • Sam Badger

            Well you certainly seemed to be saying all Arabs are less civilized, literate and cultured.

            What I would say is that all cultures have “bad actors” and that people cannot be judged (whether Arab, American, European, Israeli or anyone else) by a minority from their religion/language/culture, and that the judgment of Arabs as one way or another has been used by the UK, US and Israel to justify colonialism towards their people. Also, that Hamas is a product of a century of colonialism in the Arab world (not only by Israel but by the UK, USA, France, and even some Arab powers), and local Sunni Muslim ideological responses to this colonialism. I don’t think its fair to judge people that way, and there is a dangerous history of this.

            It’s notable that more innocent, poor, working people died in a recent factory collapse in Bangladesh making t-shirts for the US consumers at Wal-Mart than Israelis have died in all recent Palestinian militant actions combined. More Palestinian civilians have died to the poverty imposed not only by Israel but by the Western powers which back it. Yet nobody except a handful of otherwise marginalized and extremist Salafists judges Americans, Brits or Israelis as a people for the consumption habits which drove the factory collapse. I don’t think it would be fair to judge all American consumers as bad, and I dont think it would be fair to judge the Palestinians in the way that you seemed to do. If that is not a fair characterization of your words, then so be it, but I dont think I was being particularly uncharitable to your views.

            Bush used the kind of rhetoric that the Arab world was fundamentally less democratic (and “civilized”) and NEEDED western intervention to “advance” which has led to much of the latest wave of violence in the middle east, especially in Iraq. I don’t think its fair when American and Israeli ideologues paint Arabs as less civilized, and i dont think we should let ourselves buy into it. I’m not saying you’re a terrible human being, I’m just saying that your views of Arabs reflect bad assumptions and could be revisited.

  • EIDALM

    It was totally discussting to hear this biased man Aaron David Miller total biased one sided pro Israel criminal and bloody attack on unarmed civilian population where near all of the targeted victims are civilians specially children as it happen on the beach yesterday. It is not acceptable to have Aaron Miller spend the whole time blaming the victim and doing his best to white wash Israel bloody war crimes against the Palestinian people….I wonder if David Miller would have spo0ke in this manner if he was not Zionest Jew..

  • EIDALM

    I would like to tell David Miller to Google search ( THE WORST BRAND NAME IN THE WORLD ) the answer is Israel ,so as soon as Israel lose the criminal and bloody support of the not honest broker U S government ,Israel will cease to exist and people like David Aron Miller who white wash Israel crimes and talk like Israel can do no wrong will be to blamed….Blaming the Palestinian for the Israeli war crimes is not any different than blaming Jews for Hitler crimes against them.

  • EIDALM

    Please ,Please ,please ,Don’t put this man David Aron Miller on Forum any more he have shown himself to be not worthy to be guest on Forum….Please do not have him on again .

    • ES Trader

      right lets have more Palestinian spokesman that spout hatred and pushing Jews into the Mediterranean

      The hostess read one pro PLO comment and disregarded any comment to the contrary

      • EIDALM

        It always far better to have smart enemy than stupid friend ,David Aron Miller is not doing Israel any favor by lying to white wash Israel crimes against humanity ,with the advent of the modern era of social media most people all over the world can see for themselves the war crimes committed by Israel one of the largest army in the world using the most advance lethal arms including F16 jets , tanks ,missiles ,and bombs against unarmed captive civilians including innocent men ,women ,and children….Israel is such coward bunch of killers who always attack the weak and young and the disables…With all of the crimes Israel committed against all of it’s neighbors specially the defenseless Palestinian people ,Israel have terrible standing among near all countries of the world and as soon as it loses the criminal support of the U S government ,Israel is going to cease to exist and it will be only remembered as a black and bloody dot in human history as their teachers the Nazi Germany.

      • EIDALM

        Having an extreme Zionist on Forum white washing Israel bloody crimes against humanity is not different of having Hitler on Forum white washing the Nazi crimes against humanity including the Jewish people.

  • John

    Racist apartheid states like Israel are an anachronism in today’s world. A single state with power sharing is the only solution.

    • Another Mike

      A confederation, like the genesis of Canada (Quebec and Ontario) or when Scotland joined up with England. Two distinct cultures under a common government.

  • Victor

    Around 2,000 high-precision bombs that hit an area where population density is higher than New York City. The total dead are around 200, including both hamas and (sadly) civilians. Assuming that Israel intended to cause casualties, why most bombs in such a densely populated place don’t kill anyone? Once forced to fight in such populated place, where fighters purposefully mingle with civilians, how would you do it?

  • Victor

    How would you fight a war that is imposed on you; with fighters mingling with noncombatants; at a place with highest population density in the world? I don’t see your answer.

    About withdrawal – remember that Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza (with Hamas still not recognizing its right to even exist), and let Gazans to build their own state. When Gazans were more interested in attacking Israel than building their state, a blockade was emposed as means to reduce the threat. Even in the current round Israel offered and accepted suggested ceasefires, Hamas rejected or didn’t abide by those.

    About ‘proportionally’. Hamas fires hundreds of rockets at civilian centers, with no guidance and intention to kill. Would your ‘proportional’ response be to fire the same number of unguided rockets back to Gaza? Or kill one Gazan in response to each killed Israeli? Israel rejected that and plainly works to remove the threat of rocket fire. This strategy isn’t free from collateral damage (which indeed sucks), but there is nothing better on the table.

    • ES Trader

      It is an exercise in futility to raise valid points with emotional rants.

      The true identity and background of the PLO supporters is neither known nor logical.

      They label any support of the Israeli reaction as racist, brainwashed, and un or mis-informed.

      They cite incidense out of context completely dis-regarding the cause of the incidence and will not answer any direct questions or views like:

      Did Hamas call the kidnappers heroes vs the quick arrest of the Israeli’s involved in the retaliation.

      Did Nethanyahu and Sharon dorectly reach out to express remorse?

      Why is Hamas telling its people to disregard the Israeli warnings?

      Did Hamas smuggle weapons thru tunnels ?

      etc.

      • Another Mike

        Netanyahu claimed Hamas was responsible for the kidnapping and killing of the yeshiva students, but has yet to share his evidence with the press. Why?

        • ES Trader

          Hamas acknowledged they were kidnapped by Palestinians that they call “Heroes”.

          When the criminal confesses, the prosecuters’ job is done

          • Another Mike

            I thought collective guilt ended in 1945. “Hamas acknowledged.”? Only human beings can speak, and human beings have names.

  • ES Trader

    Y does Hamas intentionally launch from hospitals, schools etc?

    Justify that .

    • Another Mike

      Simple explanation: Israel will not let Hamas build any proper military bases.

      • ES Trader

        Israel has about 150 Nobel laureates, Palestinian Nobels can be counted on one hand.

        Israel uses that knowledge to produce weapons to protect its people; Hamas uses its people to protect its weapons

        • Another Mike

          Hard to get an education when your neighbor is Israel.
          Per an Edinburgh University report in 2005:

          73 educational institutions have been partially or fully destroyed in the Gaza Strip since September 2000, including kindergartens, schools, and a teacher training college which was completely demolished on 16 March 2004.

          Over 700 children, 200 university students and 39 teachers have been killed by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) since September 2000 and that 117 Israeli minors have been killed during the same period, 81 of them within Israel proper.

          Over 3,000 Palestinian children have been arrested by the IDF since September 2000 and that some 300 children are currently held in Israeli prisons and detention centers.

          On April 3rd 2002 IDF forces invaded the Palestinian Ministry of Education destroying valuable computer equipment as well as the records kept pertaining to the one million Palestinian children the Ministry served; no justification in terms of military necessity was given.

          Birzeit University was sealed off by an Israeli Army roadblock for nearly 3 years between 2001-2003; and that today [2005] the road to Birzeit remains subject to frequent ‘flying checkpoints’, which block, harass and intimidate students and faculty trying to reach the University.

          That Birzeit University has been closed down by Israeli military order 15 times in its history; and that all the Palestinian universities and the majority of schools, including kindergartens, were closed down by military order between the years 1987-1992, denying a whole generation their right to education.

          • EIDALM

            Please don’t call them IDF , they are coward bloody murderers.

        • EIDALM

          Israel in it’s current world standing is a failed garrison state , not a country so all of the Noble prize winners there should belong to their real home counties of origin ,they are really Germans ,Russians ,Polish ,British ,French , Italians ,ETC…Israel has zero Noble prize winners…

          • ES Trader

            Its like sports, players need not be homegrown to WIN, and Gaza isn’t attracting any as new home

  • ES Trader

    Then suggest another method of retaliation

    Turn the other cheek and complain to the UN?

  • ES Trader

    Israeli has better, effective weapons. its not intentionally targeting civilians.

    If Hamas could penetrate Iron Dome, they would and casualties would be higher but for the last 40 years Palestinians have been throwing rocks, bottles, anything they could get their hands on against well armed, shielded Israeli forces. What dies that tell you? Do you play poker or any games that involve competing against an opponent ? If not, try watching sports and learn something

  • ES Trader

    You confuse clarity for hatred but thats typical

  • Another Mike

    The ratio might have been six to one, but in the last several conflicts it has been ten to one, and now it is two hundred to one.

  • ES Trader

    They are forced to kill civilians, including women,children, and the elderly, in order to protect Israel against the indiscriminate missile attacks.

    Hamas wants its own people killed as propaganda to elicit sympathy from Europe , the U.S and the rest of the world that can go about its daily business of work, shopping and entertainment without fear of being hit by a missile.

  • ES Trader

    what occupation, Israel has no intention of occupying Gaza

    Israel permitted the establishment of a government but Palestinians voted for rulers that are really interested entirely in 1) staying in power, 2) destroying Isreal and killing Jews(see Hamas charter) 3)will sacrifice its own people to elicit sympathy

  • EIDALM

    They love to murder children and that happens since 1948 , they intentionally do that to terrorize the parents to flea their land ,over the bloody violent history of Israel tens of thousands of Palestinian children where murdered by their coward troops under instructions from their generals…They even murdered hundreds of Egyptian children including an incident in 1956 tri attack when an Israeli jet bombed a high school in Cairo that resulted in the death of more that 200 students ,that school was close to our house in Caro.

  • David Abbot

    hello
    every body we open campaign to help the children of GAZA and need your help.

    who can contribute or spread this campaign-.

    this campaign called “Help Bring a Smile To The Children Of Gaza’.

    the target of this campaign is to buy toys and games to children and make them
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    please help those children.

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    *No violence, No politics, Only human concern…

    best you all and wish you all PEACE

  • David Abbot

    hello
    every body we open campaign to help the children of GAZA and need your help.

    who can contribute or spread this campaign-.

    this campaign called “Help Bring a Smile To The Children Of Gaza’.

    the target of this campaign is to buy toys and games to children and make them
    smile

    please help those children.

    following the link to campaign:http://igg.me/p/876735/x/3545457

    *No violence, No politics, Only human concern…

    best you all and wish you all PEACE

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