(Jeff Mitchell/Getty Images)

Bay Area students are heading back to school this month amid news that an increasing number of parents have opted not to vaccinate their kids. The number of unvaccinated children in California has tripled in the last decade. Nearly 10 percent of kindergartners statewide last year didn’t have all of their required immunizations. In Marin Country, only 82 percent of kindergartners were fully vaccinated. To fight this trend, a Marin pediatric practice with 8,000 patients has refused to treat those who aren’t vaccinated, public health officials have launched information campaign and a new state law requires parents to consult with a doctor before opting out of vaccines. A well-known bio-ethicist is even proposing lawsuits against parents who refuse to immunize. We talk about efforts to pressure parents to vaccinate their kids. Why are vaccination opt-out rates rising? Will efforts to turn the tide work?

Guests:
Catherine Martin, director of the California Immunization Coalition, non-profit, public-private partnership dedicated to full immunization protection for Californians
Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Bioethics at NYU Langone Medical Center
Nelson Branco, practicing pediatrician and managing partner at Tamalpais Pediatrics in Marin County, a practice that recently made getting the MMR vaccine by age two a requirement of care
Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center

  • geraldfnord

    I look forward to a reasoned conversation on this page full of references to peer-reviewed journal articles, well-designed statistical analyses, and not at all to charges of intentionally making children sick or not being concerned about incidental such, otherwise intentionally hurting or being callous to children, or charges of being either part or dupe of a massive conspiracy.

    Play ball!

    • Truth

      Corporate malfeasance is not a conspiracy, it’s a fact of life.

  • trite

    Perhaps the three-in-one vaccine should not be used, but there should be three distinct vaccines. Is that part of the answer that would reassure parents?

    • Stephanie

      No. What would reassure parents would be the cessation of using items like mercury and fetal cells and so on and so forth in vaccinations.

      • jdm79

        Did you even listen to the program? The distinction between methyl and ethyl mercury was included…

      • paulc1978

        Mercury hasn’t been in vaccines for a long while. Again, misinformation that is propagated does not make it fact.

      • jmh5204

        A cell line is not “fetal cells.” Also, see below, ethyl vs. methyl. Different, and also not there anymore. But regardless. By your standards, ethyl alcohol does the same thing as methanol. Let’s all raise a glass of methanol! In a toast! As all mercury is the same, all alcohol must be too!

  • Hhotelconsult

    The fact that we are even here is indicative of a much bigger problem: We allow public policy to be guided by opinions of celebrities, or delivered via belief systems’ (baseless) arguments of authority. I am a big “skeptic”, & it just seems absurd that we actually need to talk about this. If we refused public policy to be negotiated by emotion versus evidence, this wouldn’t even be a conversation. It is absolutely negligent that parents are even having a discussion about whether to get children vaccinated. I deplore that our public health is jeopardized by uneducated emotional opinions that have no basis in science. The lack of reasoning and critical thought here is absolutely depressing.

    • erictremont

      It is depressing, and I can’t imagine such dangerous mis-information being spread so rapidly if the Internet did not exist.

      • Hhotelconsult

        (or, hopefully, the ability to debunk it….. the nature of the internet is such that it may stamp out weird / irrational belief. We don’t even trust a photo that a friend sent was not photoshopped, or that a email story is real….. people are becoming more critical and rational due to access to information. You are right the internet spreads the bad, but there is the flip side to it, too….)

        maybe… lol =) this conversation is so fascinating to me. People will look at people refusing vaccines as a modern dark ages.

    • Weltanschauung

      The same can be said about your views. Out of ignorance you irrationally cry fowl, assuming others are more ignorant than you. You put yourself on a pedestal as do many non-skeptics who call themselves skeptics.

      Vaccines are produced by corporations, not nonprofits. Corporations always cut corners to boost profits, as did Baxter did when they shipped vaccines contaminated with live Avian Flu virus.

      • Hhotelconsult

        That still doesn’t debunk the science of vaccines. That speaks to the problems of mass production and capitalism. Straw Man argument there…

        • Weltanschauung

          Not at all. You denigrate anti-vaccine opinions as irrational because you irrationally refuse to understand why people fear vaccines.

          • erictremont

            For your information, the epidemiological studies that have failed to find any connection between vaccines and autism have been largely conducted by government and academic scientists who are not funded by drug companies. It is a libel to imply otherwise.

          • Stephanie

            And our government has come back and mysteriously said that the research and side effect information on vaccines does not exist. Several countries in Europe have come out and verified the link between vaccines and autism.

          • Shelhl

            That is blatantly untrue. You should stop reading conspiracy theory websites. There is an entire organization in the US government that handles and compiles information about adverse events to vaccines. Your assertion is flat out wrong. As far as the European research is concerned, show it to us. Explain the methodology they use. I am an epidemiologist by training and would be happy to review it for you.

          • jmh5204

            The country that did that, Italy, in a civil court btw, also found seismologists guilty of manslaughter after an earthquake. Not so sure we should put trust in them. It’s being appealed with actual expert testimonies, which weren’t provided previously.

          • paulc1978

            The only thing irrational is the fear of anti-vaccine folks. There have been numerous studies showing no link to any issue that the anti vaccine community has spouted. The paper on autism was removed yet people still don’t trust vaccines.

            The lack of scientific knowledge in this country and lack of wanting to learn is baffling to me.

          • Weltanschauung

            My background is science and I suspect either yours is not, or that you have a vested interest.

            Vaccines can be deadly:

            http://www.infowars.com/baxter-same-company-that-unleashed-tainted-avian-flu-vaccines-recalls-300000-flu-vaccines-for-serious-adverse-reactions/

          • paulc1978

            Actually my background is in biochemistry and I have no vested interest other than protecting the general good of society.

            And please stop linking to infowars. It’s not a reputable site.

          • Hhotelconsult

            Dogs can be deadly. Cars. Walking in a city can be dangerous. All that matters is the risk vs greater good. Just because vaccines can rarely be deadly doesn’t negate that 99% of the time they save lives and create a healthier public. As your background is science, I am sure you understand the difference between small, aberrant populations versus the greater control groups, right?

          • Shelhl

            Both my background AND my current occupation is science, nor do I have a vested interest in any pharmaceutical company. No one is saying vaccines *can’t* be deadly. Everything *can* be deadly. Even too much water can kill you. Yet no one is banning that. I think you need a bit of a refresher in biostatistics and critical thinking.

          • geraldfnord

            I think you mean the ‘fears of the anti-vaccine people’—what you wrote were more likely construed as being afraid of the anti-vaccine people, which I personally find warranted (in the sense that I think they do much more harm than good, the only good they do is helping to provoke an higher degree of transparency from the drugs companies) but not, I think what you meant.

            The lack of scientific knowledge and lack of wanting to learn in this country does not baffle me in the least: ‘we’ don’t like people who know things, and we don’t trust science because it tells us things our great-grandfathers didn’t believe. Also, ‘we’ have an allergy to Authority, which can be a good thing (I wish we’d had more of it before the Vietnam and Iraq adventures) but a very bad thing when we confuse ‘thinks she’s better at something than us’ with ‘thinks she’s BETTER than us’—although, to be fair, the two were often confused by the one knowing better, the kind of people who came from Edinburgh with fancy documents, took your land, uprooted you, and set you down amidst a sea of justifiably-unhappy Irish. They were also the sort of people who knew Europe or the East Coast and thought they knew better than you how to handle life on the frontier, ignorant of what were good to eat, or how much wood you needed to chop for the winter, or why it was God’s Will that you marry your daughter and violate every treaty the Damn Federal Gummint had made with those heathen savages.

  • Weltanschauung

    Can your guests please comment on the scandal involving Baxter Pharmaceuticals a few years ago, in which health workers in Europe did a routine test of the “vaccines” that Baxter sent them and found them to be contaminated with live avian flu virus? If this had not been caught, it could have led to a widespread die-off of human beings in Slavic and German-speaking countries.

    Anyone who knows how safety checks work in Big Pharma will tell you that an error such as this would have required several REQUIRED levels of safety checks not being done. In other words, a complete breakdown of safety checks at Baxter. And yet last I heard, there was no criminal investigation done.

    http://www.infowars.com/baxter-same-company-that-unleashed-tainted-avian-flu-vaccines-recalls-300000-flu-vaccines-for-serious-adverse-reactions/

    • Hhotelconsult

      That’s more of a regulatory issue, than whether the science of vaccination is valid? Interesting story though.. thanks for that link. I hadn’t heard of it, but I guess it doesn’t negate the efficacy of vaccines so much as higlight the problems of mass production?

      • Weltanschauung

        You won’t be poo-pooing this calling it a “regulatory issue” if you DIE because a corporation cut corners yet again.

        You are not a skeptic.

        • paulc1978

          So the one in a million chance there is a somewhat severe side effect negates all of the positive? It’s like arguing against seat belts because of the one in a million time someone would be saved if they were thrown from their car. The good far outweighs the bad.

        • Hhotelconsult

          As your background is science, I am sure you understand the odds of dying from a vaccination glitch due to production issues is infinitesmely small versus a vaccine preventable disease? You are using straw men arguments to ignore the fact that “vaccinations work, are safe, and effective” (as the lady just said…) =)

    • jdm79

      Alex Jones websites? Really? There may be some credible information in there, but it is buried. Take a look at the source article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2054160/300-000-doses-flu-vaccine-Preflucel-withdrawn-alert-effects.html vs. the guy who screams likes a lunatic about the Bilderberg group. For the record — I’m pro-vaccination, pro-science, pro-peer reviewed studies, pro-debunked Wakefield lies, etc.

      • paulc1978

        I’m glad someone else caught that as well. I can cite numerous quack websites listing false things about anything but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s wrong.

      • Weltanschauung

        Jones is just a conduit for the truth.

        • microlith

          You think so but have no evidence whatsoever to support your conclusions.

    • Eleanor Ellis-Lee

      Every year hundreds of millions of people get vaccinated with no harm and millions of lives saved.
      One incidence of an accident does not suddenly make pharmaceuticals an overwhelming danger. It’s like believing one airplane accident means air travel means an exceptionally high risk of death the moment you set foot on a plane.
      Taking rare occurrences as basis for overblown fears flies in the face of science and math.

      • Truth

        You want a simple minded black or white understanding. Like a caveman saying “vaccines good” over and over and bonking anyone on the head who disagrees. But it’s more complex than that. Corporate malfeasance makes it so. There has been profound criminal negligence and zero accountability for that.

    • geraldfnord

      This is a a bait-and-switch argument: anti-vaccination people generally claim that there were something generally wrong with certain or some or all vaccines when prepared as advertised—the truth of which statement not clear and is in dispute—and substitutes the claim that a certain provider of vaccines committed fraud and assault, which is obvious and not at all in contention.

      The only exception to the above criticism would be in the case that one argued that such fraud were and would inevitably be endemic to such an extent that any benefit of the vaccine would be overwhelmed, and that doesn’t seem to be the case, at least since people stopped inoculating with live smallpox (as opposed to cowpox), and maybe not even then..

  • Liz

    Can your experts please comment about the higher incidences of asthma and allergies with full vaccine schedules?

    • paulc1978

      Care to cite peer reviewed articles on that? There is no proof of anything you wrote.

      • Hhotelconsult

        Well called out Paul….

    • Shelhl

      Kindly provide us with a citation for that statement? Remember, correlation does not equal causation. Statistics 101.

    • jmh5204

      1) cite your sources. 2) I could say the same about television, organic food consumption, fast food, soda consumption, or the increase of Jim Carrey movies since he started as an actor. 3) without sources backing it up, I could offer such explanations as better diagnostics, or, the fact that children with those problems in past may have been the unhealthy who died of these diseases more readily than other children without such problems. See, they don’t die anymore because of vaccines. I have no sources besides my understanding of population epidemiology. But that’s basic math. The bigger the population, the more more health problems you’ll find in it that statistically mean very little when looking at the whole.

  • Julia

    Every time I hear these type of discussions, it makes me furious. The issue is painted as black and white, and people who are skeptical about the current “pile it on” vaccine schedule in the US are painted as ignorant, whereas in fact, many of us are very well educated and reasonable people who have researched this issue extensively and have good reason to have our doubts.

    Your guests ignore research indicating that vaccinated children have significantly higher rates of allergies and asthma, and they brush off as “anecdotal” heartbreaking stories where children have been severely harmed or even killed by vaccines. I would like to see a more nuanced, balanced discussion that does not threaten reasonable people with prosecution for making a decision that they believe — based on solid evidence — to be right for their children.

    This feels like bullying to me.

    • Weltanschauung

      It feels like bullying because only a police state would jail people from not taking a vaccine.

      • geraldfnord

        Yes, that’s true: an angry mob who thought that a family had brought a deadly disease to their community for lack of vaccination—even if they had made the same stupid error themselves—might well lynch them instead.

        • Truth

          These people are corporate shills but as you say, demagogues as well, hoping to lynch anyone who is skeptical about Big Pharma, for which they work.

    • jdm79

      Your kid killing my kid with a preventable disease feels a lot more like bullying to me.

      • Weltanschauung

        And if Baxter Pharmaceuticals gives your kid a vaccine that is contaminated with live Avian Flu virus and that kills your child, will you still be so smug?

        http://www.infowars.com/baxter-same-company-that-unleashed-tainted-avian-flu-vaccines-recalls-300000-flu-vaccines-for-serious-adverse-reactions/

        • microlith

          Oh look, it’s an infowars spammer.

        • Shelhl

          Dear, Inforwars is not a source of reputable data. It illustrates a lot about your knowledge that you think it is.

        • Rod Craven

          Infowars? Next it will be whale.to or Natural News. Give us a break.

          • Barbara Kolander

            Natural News is an excellent resource, for people who actually care to do the work to be truly healthy, which brings real honest to goodness natural immunity.

      • Hhotelconsult

        This is one of the best comments ever. lol

      • Will

        If your child is protected with your sacred vaccine, you shouldn’t have to worry that….just sayin. By the way, vaccinated children/adults can be as much a carrier of a virus or bacteria as anyone else.

        • paulc1978

          Apparently you don’t understand how vaccines work, Will. At best they are 99% effective. As you add more unvaccinated people in the community who may have the disease the likelihood that the vaccinated person contracts that disease goes up. But as more people are vaccinated the incidence goes down.

          • Will

            Are you sure about that, Paul? Sounds like a good theory, but…
            Flu shot is a great example: Longer and longer flu seasons every year, more and more people getting Flu shot, yet more and more people sick each year with Flu…among the vaccinated population.

          • microlith

            Flu mutates rapidly, far more so than the diseases which are focused on for schools: mumps, measles, rubella, pertussis, etc.

            Failing to vaccinate for those is blatant irresponsibility.

          • jdm79
          • Shelhl

            Yes, what he is referring to is called “herd immunity.” That is how vaccines work on the population level. It is an established fact. Different diseases require different levels of herd immunity based upon their transmissability and their R (the basic reproductive rate), which is a metric that is used to calculate the number needed to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to be effective. R refers to the number of cases one case generates on average over the course of its infectious period. Every infectious disease has a different R and thus a different calculation is involved.

          • Rod Craven

            There are more than 1 strain of flu out there, Wilt. Just cos we vaccinate for the most virulent strain in that season, doesn’t mean we can’t get last years or another one. You argument is a strawman at best.

          • Will

            Exactly the point…they are not sure which strain to vaccinate against…keep on guessing folks, and can I please have another dose of Aluminum with a side of mercury? Herd immunity only works with natural immunity from a disease. If you think long-term natural immunity, and thus herd immunity comes from vaccines, think again….booster shots?

          • jmh5204

            In addition to flu mutating quickly, and various strains, it should be pointed out that a disease can only be stopped from spreading if there is herd immunity. You’re free to look that up. Even the most effective vaccine is not 100% effective, meaning even if everyone was able to be vaccinated and followed through, you would still have people capable of catching the disease. We have to reach that level where the number of vaccinated reaches a statistically significant percentage more than those who are to prevent spread. The percentages are different for every disease, and I couldn’t even begin to do the math here. Measles is highly contagious, and requires a rate of about 95% to prevent spread amongst the unvaccinated or those where the vaccine just didn’t take. It happens. Or those who had the disease and lost their immunity, which also happens (I had chicken pox bad as a child, and my job required immunity against varicella. My blood tests showed my immunity waned and I needed a booster. For natural infection.)
            Anyway, estimates show that flu probably needs a vaccination rate of about 80% for spread to significantly drop. Even if the vaccine was 100% matched and perfect, we’re not there. The rate of flu vaccination is about 50%. THAT’S why it still spreads, even when the vaccine is a good match. It’s because half the population doesn’t understand the science, doesn’t understand how many people die from flu a year, and doesn’t feel responsible for the person next to him, who may die for an infection they will be fine with.
            Oh, also, there is a difference between “influenza-like illness” and influenza. Many people think a bad upper respiratory infection is flu. Not so. Most people who say they have the flu don’t. Unless you are knocked out for at least a week with a high fever, intractable coughing, and body aches that make you want to die, chances are, it’s not flu. THAT is also why the lay person thinks “more people than ever” are getting the flu.

        • Cassandra

          Exactly, the adult population is largely “unprotected” by vacccines and yet everyone isnt dying!

        • j__h

          Vaccines are not 100% effective and some people cannot have vaccines for medical reasons. But these people are protected when those around them are vaccinated. The term is herd immunity, once a population is protected to a certain extent (be it with a vaccine that works 100% of the time or 95% of the time). There is very low chance a disease will become widespread.

          >As of 2009, herd immunity is compromised in some areas for some vaccine-preventable diseases, including pertussis and measles and mumps, in part because of parental refusal of vaccination.[5][6][7]

          Read all about it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

        • Rod Craven

          Check herd or community immunty, mate. The more we vaccinate, the more everyone who can’t is protected. But the more you paranoid antivaxers push the envelope and force the vaccination rate to drop, like in Wales and England after that fraud Wakefield did his dirty work, the more chance people get sick. Ask Mrs Colfer-Williams about her son. She didn’t vaccinate becasue of Wakefield, and now her 26 year old son is dead. Not from alcoholism or drug addiction like some idiots are claiming, but measles-related pneumonia. Had Wakefield not interfered in the caccination schedule, then Mrs Colfer-Williams would be having coffee with her son instead of visiting his grave. Vaccinated children do not pass on the disease, because the vaccine doesn’t contain the disease. Do some REAL research instead of listening to eejits like Jenni McCarthy.

      • Stephanie

        If your kid died from a preventable disease and was vaccinated properly, wouldn’t that mean vaccines in fact aren’t as effective as thought?

        • jdm79
        • jdm79

          You should take a look at this site, that explains pretty clearly why that argument doesn’t hold water: http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2011/12/vaccine-awareness-week-if-vaccines-work.html

          It’s well written, nonjudgmental, and breaks it down in a statistical analysis.

        • Shelhl

          Were they vaccinated for the appropriate disease and at the appropriate time and dosage? Did they remain up-to-date on any boosters, if they’re required? Do you know that different vaccines have different efficacies? Some are high, conferring large amounts of protection, and some are less. You are making the mistake of lumping them all into one category. They are all quite different in terms of how they confer immunity. You need to flesh out your argument more. It lacks evidence.

        • j__h

          Vaccines are not 100% effective and some people cannot have vaccines for medical reasons. But these people are protected when those around them are vaccinated. The term is herd immunity, once a population is protected to a certain extent (be it with a vaccine that works 100% of the time or 95% of the time). There is very low chance a disease will become widespread.

          >As of 2009, herd immunity is compromised in some areas for some vaccine-preventable diseases, including pertussis and measles and mumps, in part because of parental refusal of vaccination.[5][6][7]

          Read all about it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

    • Shelhl

      At the risk of sounding condescending, so I do apologize in advance, this notion that you can “do research” as a non-expert in this field is what infuriates me, just as the previous situation infuriates you. I’m sorry to say it but just because “reasonable” and “educated” people do “some research” does not mean they are doing it appropriately. Have they been trained in epidemiology and therefore know all the different study designs, research methods, and statistical techniques that are used in vaccine efficacy studies? If not, they are merely looking on Web sites and getting anecdotal information, which can be extremely biased and mis-informative. This notion that “Oh but I’ve done the research” is like saying you can be a surgeon because “Oh but I’ve cut some things before and have an idea what side of the body the liver is on.” I’m sorry if it sounds facetious, but that’s what these stories and so-called ad-hoc “research” sounds like to people who have actually spent years and years studying the methodological techniques undergirding the science. That is not bullying; that is upholding the integrity of the science, which is what any ethical scientist should do. If that hurts someone’s feelings (i.e., feels “bullying”, which seems to be the catchphrase of the month) then that person needs to re-examine why these emotions are coming up and admit that they may need to come to terms with the fact that sometimes they are just wrong, even if that hurts a bit. Perhaps additional training in biostatistics would help as well.

      • Linda

        Wow it sounds like you’ve got it all pretty much figured out. Surprising you wouldn’t use your full name so that readers could know where to turn to get all answers scientific. Who knew there was such a genius in the midst?

        • Rod Craven

          Well I’m using my full name and I call your argument bunkum. Absolute bunkum. And if he is willing to put up his credentials without you putting up yours (wait, you have none, do you) then I guess that makes your argument as redundant as it gets.

          BTW, I don’t pretend to be a physician, uni student or have an IQ of 160 – I DO, however check my sources thoroughly, and know bulldust when I spot it.

          • Linda

            Bunkum and bulldust. Those sound like good names for soon to be released flu shots. I wonder if the stickers you get after getting the shot will read “Got Bunkum?” or “I got my Bulldust today.”

        • jmh5204

          He/she probably doesn’t have it figured out, however is more likely than you to be actually doing the kind of research required to to understand risk-benefit relationships and statistical analyses of such in the relevant fields.
          You, right here, sound like a high schooler throughing a, “YOUR FACE!” retort back at someone who just explained how they were wrong. You use the same bully tactics when concerned, educated individuals who understand the science try to explain the situation.

          • Linda

            I believe your correct spelling would have been “throwing,” but then again my profession is not in science. William Carlos Williams is perhaps best known as a poet, though he was also a physician. One of my favorite of his poems is called “The Fools Song.” I suppose it can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I see it as having two meanings. One is that usually truth emerges (it “can’t be caged”) over time, and the second is that no one has or ever will know all truths. So how it applies here is that when I read people write so authoritatively on subjects which have many unanswered questions, I have to wonder just how qualified in science they may be. Those who believe they already have all of the answers should perhaps find a different field of study.

          • jmh5204

            My apologies, I did misspell. “Throwing.” And I’m an infection preventionist at a cancer hospital. This is my job. Protecting people who can’t protect themselves from preventable infectious diseases.

  • Raichael Jennings

    Please address the use of titer testing for fully informed decision before vaccinating.

    • DrMikeH49

      titers are indeed useful for certain specific situations– for example, an adult who has no history of chickenpox disease may have positive titers indicating previous exposure and therefore immunity, and does not need to be immunized.A child being adopted from a developing country may have already had adequate exposure to have developed titers, or that same child with an incomplete immunization history can be tested to see if he/she already has antibodies to some of these diseases.
      However, young infants will have + titers solely based on passive antibody transfer in utero from the mother. Those antibodies will disappear over time so do not provide long term protection. In addition, infants and young children will be unlikely to have exposures to illnesses such as pertussis, measles, etc so their chances of acquiring subclinical infection producing immunity are minimal.
      Hope that helps address your question.

      • Raichael Jennings

        Thank you for the explanation. When my mother tried to “opt-out” in 1975, she could not and therefore made the doctor do titer testing on both my brother and me (I was 2, my brother 3) for all that were available. Mumps was the only one that was not testable at the time, we therefore both got the MMR (not being available as 3 separate vaccines). I almost died. When in high school in 1990 we had a Rubeola outbreak I was required to have had either 2 vaccines since 1976 or get another one then and there. Not wanting to repeat the experience I again asked for a titer test. Then in 1999 I went through the process again when I started at University. Titers in 1990 and 1999 came back with sufficient antibodies. So, my follow-up questions – Any studies of how long “mother’s antibodies” take to wear off? And does breast feeding confer any additional immunity?

        • DrMikeH49

          Maternal antibodies can persist up to about 9 months of age, which is why infants exposed to chickenpox often do not develop any disease (they have antibodies from their mother). It’s also why the requirement for MMR and chickenpox is for 2 doses after 1 year of age. if given younger, the maternal antibodies may prevent the live virus from replicating and therefore prevent the vaccine from working. Breast feeding does not provide any additional bloodstream immunity, so even toddlers being breastfed can be given these vaccines without concern about their effectiveness.
          Any institution (university, hospital, etc) that requires someone to be immune will accept positive titers as proof that someone is immune, regardless of their immunization status.

  • Eleanor Ellis-Lee

    Seems like some people believe that they are the special exception/outlier where they are the unique case and require special treatment. Well these special snowflakes can also be excepted from doctors’ offices/ health settings. And these special people should be sued for their depraved indifference towards everyone else.

    “Pharmaceutical products” should not be used as a bogeyman phrase to excuse blanket ignorance about science. Every time the speaker says that phrase and scream about the small occurrences of injury, I cringe about people’s ignorance of statistics and basic risk assessment.

    • paulc1978

      Exactly! Yet these same people drive a car. The risk of injury or death is much greater doing that than vaccinating yourself or your children.

  • paulc1978

    It’s amazing to me that there is a discussion about not vaccinating your children. Have the same conversation 60 years ago when polio was rampant and see what the responses would have been.

    Not vaccinating your children is only an issue in upper class white areas.

    • SlySy

      This should give you pause for thought. The whole anti-vaccine thing is the result of the frightful combination that is privilege + ignorance. Elitism fuels some of the dumbest positions currently en vogue.

  • $11165038

    Rates are rising because people don’t trust the companies that make the vaccines. They don’t trust that vaccines are being made with ingredients that are safe. This is in part due to the fallout from our political/regulatory system becoming more and more a money driven system that puts the best interest of whatever group has the deeper pocket above the best interest and safety of the rest of us.

  • Pete

    Fear of vaccines is about as practical as a fear of flying. Except your fear of flying doesn’t put my one year old at risk of lethal disease.

  • Linda

    With my first child I followed the doctors orders on vaccination and as a result she’ll face seizures and GI and immune system problems, likely for the rest of her life. Vaccine companies know a certain percentage of kids will be injured or even killed. If your kid is not one of those statistics, be thankful, but don’t judge parents who try to make informed decisions based upon a child’s individual health.

    • microlith

      Reactions to vaccines are a statistical certainty, which is why there is a national fund to support those that are unlucky enough to suffer such a reaction.

      don’t judge parents who try to make informed decisions based upon a child’s individual health.

      Do they do so on the basis of a doctor’s recommendation, or because they heard panicky words from Jenny McCarthy and thought they could protect against autism by doing so?

      • Linda

        Either way, parents are liable for a child’s long term health and medical care. The national fund may cover a very small percentage with compensation. But that’s little consolation to those of us who live 24/7 with a person who is damaged for life. Parents should be informed of the risks either way, so that vaccination is an informed decision, not a one-size-fits-all mandate.

        • microlith

          Parents should be informed of the risks either way, so that vaccination is an informed decision, not a one-size-fits-all mandate.

          So how will you present it to them?

          Will it be the scaremongering of “this vaccine could maim your child!” or will it be to improve education in this nation so we could give them the statistical likelihood of such injury and they would understand that the risks from the vaccine are far and away outweighed by the risks from acquiring and spreading diseases?

          Currently it is pure fear mongering, which is resulting in far more kids being wounded by diseases than would be hurt by the vaccines.

          • Linda

            Ironic that you bring up fear mongering when that’s essentially your argument here. Currently, drug companies are required to disclose possible reactions of all their medicines, and even with vaccines doctors are required (though almost never do) to provide informed consent of potential risks. If your statements (ex. “far more kids wounded by diseases than would be hurt by vaccines”) have real data to back them up, please do share. It’s those types of generic and unfounded claims made which serve to further discredit vaccine safety and efficacy. It seems to me that by now so many parents (like me) have been burned by believing your type of talk that it’ll take some sound science (independently conducted) to convince otherwise.

          • microlith

            I’m fear mongering?

            If your statements (ex. “far more kids wounded by diseases than would be hurt by vaccines”) have real data to back them up, please do share.

            Sure. Let’s go look back at Polio. Or measles, or pertussis. The diseases are terrible, they can kill those they infect and ravage those too young to be vaccinated if they become infected. I suspect that the current reality is that people think they aren’t that bad because they haven’t had to suffer them.

            Or maybe it’s the anti-knowledge, pro-ignorance, anti-science attitudes that have cropped up in this country.

            It’s those types of generic and unfounded claims made which serve to further discredit vaccine safety and efficacy.

            The only unfounded claims are those being proposed by anti-vaxxers. The fact that polio has been devastated, the rates of infection (and thus death) by measles and pertussis have plummeted, and smallpox no longer exists, is because vaccines work.

            Is there risk? Of course, there is risk in all things. But the risks posed by vaccines are far and away outweighed by the benefits of having a society that doesn’t have to suffer those diseases.

            so many parents (like me) have been burned by believing your type of talk

            So many parents? I think you don’t understand statistics. And if you don’t grasp “my type of talk” it’s only because of your own ignorance.

            But by all means, let us break down the valuable protections that vaccines have afforded us. Then we can enjoy many more children injured like yours – only needlessly.

          • Linda

            Again it’s ironic you accuse me of not understanding statistics when you’ve provided none. Ex. Do you really know how many actually die of pertussis (whooping cough) annually? Do you know a study of the pertussis outbreak in California showed that more than 80% were kids who were vaccinated for pertussis? Based upon that figure, do you not think there’s reason to look into the efficacy of that particular vaccine?

            Last I checked the very practice of science is supposed to involve questioning, testing and retesting. Classified as “anti-science” or “pro-ignorance” would be assuming no problems with vaccines or ignoring problems when they do occur. If we know there’s a certain percentage of people who will be injured or killed by vaccines, then it is scientifically and morally irresponsible to suggest they should be universally applied. What should be happening is the “provacciners” should spend time and money trying to make vaccines more safe and effective, rather than trolling online discussions to do battle with those of us who’ve already suffered the consequences of belief in your false assumptions.

          • Dionne Wilson

            Linda, so sorry about the damage done to your child from vaccines, I feel very fortunate that my children were not injured by them – I learned the dangers of vaccines when they were teens. Funny how “microlith” named polio, pertussis and measles as being eradicated by vaccines… if you look at the actual charts, all of those diseases had declined to almost zero by the time the vaccines were invented and administered. Natural immunity had taken over long before the vaccines came on the scene. Do your research microlith and stop being a sheep!!!

          • microlith

            I learned the dangers of vaccines when they were teens.

            Then you were fed lies.

            Funny how “microlith” named polio, pertussis and measles as being eradicated by vaccines… if you look at the actual charts, all of those diseases had declined to almost zero by the time the vaccines were invented and administered.

            This is false. If the world believed your lies and people refused the polio vaccine we would still have the disease in the US today.

            Do your research microlith and stop being a sheep!!!

            The typical hew and cry of one who hasn’t actually done research and can’t back up their point. “Do your research” they cry. “Just read the evidence” they yell. But they cannot present any to defend their claims, as they must.

            I live in a country where measles and pertussis are on the rise due to declining rates of vaccination, and where polio is not vaccinated against because it has been eradicated. If you wish to argue against reality, you must back up your claims.

            Unsuprisingly, no anti-vaxxer ever has.

          • Dionne Wilson

            Ok, here’s some research… whether or not you believe it is another matter, but you can no longer say that I’m all hat and no cattle when it comes to evidence-based research.

            This report investigates the link between hygiene and infectious diseases (please note the graph that demonstrates the decline of all major childhood diseases BEFORE vaccines were invented):

            http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/55441/Aiello%20A,%20What%20is%20the%20evidence%20for%20a%20causal%20link%20between%20hygien%20and%20infections,%202002.pdf?sequence=1

            Here it is again: http://drsuzanne.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/us-deaths-1900-19651.jpg

            Here’s one on how big pharma experiments on poor women in 3rd world countries:
            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/29/3013/

            Great quote from Dr. Suzanne Humphries:

            “The non-inflammatory position of the immune system is seriously altered by vaccines which shift the T cells in a direction that will react abnormally in the future, leading to all sorts of the childhood diseases many people think are normal. But guess what…tubes inserted past the eardrums of a child are not a right of passage, inhalers should not be part of a lunchbox, epipens should not be necessary, type I diabetes in children is mostly avoidable. Even antibiotics are completely avoidable. In fact many non-vaccinating parents raise their children never needing drugs at all. The sad part is that the public has been conditioned to accept such a skewed and backwards medical system, and that they think it is the soundest option available to them. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The healthiest and most disease-free infants, children, adults and elderly people are the unvaccinated.” – See more at: http://drsuzanne.net/dr-suzanne-humphries-vaccines-vaccination/#sthash.0rJETP5J.dpuf

            I’m sure you’ll find fault with everything I provided but at least you can’t say I didn’t try… have at it!

          • Barbara Kolander

            You are sadly misinformed. These diseases break out in fully vaccinated communities, not because of declining rates of vaccination, and the un-vaccinated develop their own lifelong and strong immunity to the disease(s) if they even “catch” it (them). It is the vaccinated that succumb and fare worse because the vaccines actually weaken people. If vaccines worked as they are supposed to, then they would have an immunity to the diseases, and wouldn’t be in any danger of catching them, in fact if they did would have a better immunity and fare better. You see? The arguments that have been drilled into people by the AMA and Big Pharma do not hold water.

          • S G, DC

            Exactly!

          • Guest

            You are sadly misinformed. These diseases break out in fully vaccinated communities, not because of declining rates of vaccination, and the un-vaccinated develop their own lifelong and strong immunity to the disease(s) if they even “catch” it (them). It is the vaccinated that succumb and fare worse because the vaccines actually weaken people. If vaccines worked as they are supposed to, then they would have an immunity to the diseases, and wouldn’t be in any danger of catching them, in fact if they did would have a better immunity and fare better. You see? The arguments that have been drilled into people by the AMA and Big Pharma do not hold water.

          • jmh5204

            I had chicken pox as a child and lost my immunity, FYI, discovered during a blood test after an exposure. Wild-type virus doesn’t guarantee anything.

            Also, we’re not worried for ourselves. We’re worried for those who have no choice but to o unvaccinated due to legitimate problems. They rely on the rest of us.

          • Barbara Kolander

            Exactly!

          • microlith

            Do you really know how many actually die of pertussis (whooping cough) annually?

            These days? Not nearly as many as died before the vaccine was created.

            Do you know a study of the pertussis outbreak in California showed that
            more than 80% were kids who were vaccinated for pertussis?

            Nope, care to point it out? I’d love to see how many actual cases there were to see what that “80%” represents.

            I’m sure it’s less than there would be if we ended vaccinations altogether.

            Last I checked the very practice of science is supposed to involve questioning, testing and retesting.

            It certainly is, but modern anti-vaccination arguments are often poorly informed and emotional. They ignore the wide body of evidence that shows how effective vaccines are in suppressing disease.

            Classified as “anti-science” or “pro-ignorance” would be assuming no problems with vaccines

            The problem is that those who claim a problem with vaccines supply no evidence to support their argument. Not one pale scrap.

            If we know there’s a certain percentage of people who will be injured or killed by vaccines, then it is scientifically and morally
            irresponsible to suggest they should be universally applied.

            No. We know there is because it is a statistical certainty that we can do nothing about, but the positive effects on society greatly outweigh the risks. By your logic, we should not drive cars because it is a statistical certainty that people will have accidents and die.

            What should be happening is the “provacciners” should spend time and
            money trying to make vaccines more safe and effective

            I’m sure the laboratories are doing so. I, however, work in an unrelated field.

            rather than trolling online discussions to do battle with those of us who’ve already
            suffered the consequences of belief in your false assumptions.

            Trolling? Ah yes, disagreeing with you and pointing out the faults in your logic is “trolling.” You’ve suffered a stroke of bad luck, and as a result you think that your problem is far, far more common than it actually is.

          • Linda

            Actually I said trolling because I am presuming “Microlith” is your anonymous computer handle and not the name on your birth certificate. Transparency helps if you’re seeking be treated as a credible source.

          • microlith

            Actually I said trolling because I am presuming “Microlith” is your
            anonymous computer handle and not the name on your birth certificate.

            To be fair I’ve used the nickname for the last 13 years, but yes.

            It is trivial to find examples on the CDC website identifying the efficacy of vaccines on disease:

            http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/images/incidence-graph.jpg

            If anything, that graph teaches us two possible things: that the new vaccines are not as good, or that reduced use of vaccines is causing more incidents.

            The Wikipedia page is very well cited:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis

          • Linda

            Thank for finally acknowledging the safety and efficacy of different vaccines varies.

          • Barbara Kolander

            No, now people are dying younger and younger from cancer, diabetes, immune system disorders, etc.. and so on. That is if they even live at all after being injected with countless poisons from birth on. Many then live difficult lives after being permantly disabled from the neurological warfare called mass vaccination.

          • S G, DC

            You believe every junk science med-pharma study supporting the efficacy and safety of vaccines?

          • Wayne Rohde

            Regarding your statement on Polio. Do you know when the polio vaccine was commercially introduced to the general public? Feb 1954 is the answer. Polio started to decline in 1951. There was an uptick in polio in the mid 1950’s when discovered that the polio vaccine was contaminated and many people actually contracted polio from the vaccine. Some of the major reasons for the decline of polio before the vaccine was available was due to the clean water, improved sanitation in urban areas. Vaccines are not the reason for preventing polio. They are just a piece to the puzzle of preventing polio.

          • NikkiHillHernandez

            Rates of Hep C are falling. I wonder how? There is no vaccine for hep C. Hmm…

          • Caped Crusader

            Must be the vaccines for Hep A and Hep B that are scaring Hep C away… 😀

          • Caped Crusader

            Measles? Not deadly. I can treat measles my child will have life long immunity. The risks of measles causing a life long effect are minimal, the chance of a reaction to the vaccine is higher, and the cumulative effect of the heavy metals, detergents, and other ‘crap’ is not going into my child.

            Polio— using it in this example, shows me that you’ve read the cliff notes on Polio, and do not know anything about it other than the 1950s Polio Posters–

            How much do you receive $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ per posting?

          • Luta

            Read this vaccine excipient from the CDC site. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

            And there are plenty of medical literature about vaccine adverse reactions/injury.

            Some doctors know about these. But they are scared to speak up and lose their licenses.

            Most doctors don’t even read the package insert of vaccines. How they will give a proper information for an informed consent?

            The site of the CDC and some vaccine seller’s sites have some handouts to parents about vaccines and their information is extremely insufficient about the real truth about vaccine adverse reaction. I call it an official uninformed consent.

          • microlith

            I’m sorry, did I say that vaccines were absolutely safe?

            But they are scared to speak up and lose their licenses.

            No they aren’t. And they wouldn’t lose their license if they informed people about the risks. Suggesting otherwise is conspiratorial madness.

            Most doctors don’t even read the package insert of vaccines.

            How do you know this is true? Seriously, can you make an argument for this?

            Again, that people can have adverse reactions to vaccines is known, but the incidence is lower than the rate at which the diseases protected against injured or killed those they infected.

          • Caped Crusader

            Yet we must submit to them.. FORCED VACCINATION. No choice, no questions. No delays, no options, SUBMIT or your Dr ‘fires’ you, SUBMIT or your boss fires you, SUBMIT or your Ex uses it against you in court, SUBMIT because you were told to, over and over and over and over again. You’re not a Dr. Don’t learn about Science. NO vaccines? Then you are ANTI SCIENCE– you science hater…

            See how that works?

          • Luta

            Yes, I can “make an argument for this”. I grew up in a family of doctors; most of my friends are doctors; I know some hundreds of doctors and I am a doctor. I guess I know enough about doctors. I also know what we studied at med school and what it is taught to us. I also know a whole lot more than you about the real medical world, the daily work, the long hours, the pressures, the hard work, the love for our profession, the satisfaction of saving patients and contributing for good outcomes. I know about the love and compassion I have for people, specially children and the ones when there is nothing more we can do to change the fact they will die or be permanently sick and disabled. I also know about insurance polices and procedures as well as hospital and medical practices, and the power of medical associations, pharmaceutical companies and government. I also know about $$$.

            I guess I know a little about doctors and why I wrote most doctors do not read the package insert of vaccines “because vaccines are safe and effective”, “adverse reactions are known, mild and treatable (most commonly fever, rash)” and “their incidence are very low.” With that said, read the package insert of every vaccine is very important not only to know the other “uncommon” reactions and how to treat/refer but also to know what exactly are the excipients and what they can cause in my patient. If every doctor did this and inform them to the patient/parent, many powerful institutions and corporations would be more careful about the huge and wide number of toxins they use in their vaccines. But of course, we are all free of liability. Thank you Reagan!

          • Caped Crusader

            How about a long term study OR studies for safety of the vaccines they give together– at 2, 4, &6, months there are 8 of them, some with multiple pathogens, NONE tested for contraindications, safety etc– YET we give them to infants. If an adult took 8 medications without knowing the contraindications or FDA safety, we would call that reckless.

      • Barbara Kolander

        Now there is no longer any legal recourse for the victims of vaccine damage. Big Pharma and doctors are protected from liability.

        • Rod Craven

          Rubbish. There was never a link to begin with. Remember that fraud who got his licence stripped by the British GMC – Wakefield? Wasn’t his paper debunked and discredited for being a lie and fraudulent? I think it was, and so does everyone else with a brain.

          Wakefield was suing the makers of the MMR to get his new single dose vaccine on the market. He wanted the equivalent of $500,000 to get started, so he sued the MMR makers and did a fraudulent study on 12 kids trying to link gut reactions and autism to MMR. Nobody could replicate his ‘work’ and it was retracted from the BMJ in 2010. He later sued the GMC, the BMJ, Brian Deer from Texas and lost all cases. He is now trying to get a reality TV show up and running and using autistic kids as guinea pigs. Has this man no scruples? He is not a doctor, and is only a practicing fraud.

          As for the so-called vaccine damage claims, not one has been linked to autism, and if you read the Omnibus ruling on all the cases, you will find out that virtually all plaintiffs withdrew from the motion due to there being no link proved. They could still sue, but would lose heavily as the costs in pursuing a dead claim would be astronomical. BTW, Paul Offit put the issue to bed once and for all, and if that isn’t proof of a dead issue, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

          Vaccines don’t cause the damage you think they do – but disease does.

          • Wayne Rohde

            Rod. Please get your facts straight before stating your dribble. And last count, there are at least 83 cases of Vaccine Court compensating children with autism that were vaccine injured prior to the OAP. And we have statements from a special master that the first set of cases in the OAP should be compensated. But then, the politics of HHS and Pharma took over.

          • Caped Crusader

            With 1 in 60 children (aged 12 subset) having Autism– the odds of being compensated for Autism or another provable adverse event is slim. The are protected from litigation and it is criminal.

          • Barbara Kolander

            Right, whatever. Check the real facts. http://drpauloffit.org/

      • Caped Crusader

        The chances of being ‘compensated’ are very slim. Less than 1% of reactions or adverse events are reported to VAERS, even though Doctors are required to do so by law.

        Educating myself on the subject helped me make my decision. I am my child’s advocate.

    • Shelhl

      They don’t “know” a certain percentage will be “killed.” That is hyperbolic language that misrepresents. There are statistical probabilities that something may happen to someone. There are no certainties — they can’t identify a person and say, oh you, you’re the one that’s going to get the adverse reaction. Statistical languages are about random occurrences and probabilities surrounding those events.

      “don’t judge parents who try to make informed decisions based upon a child’s individual health.”

      Then why are you judging the rest of us, many of whom are also parents, who want to protect our child from the harm that could be brought by a preventable infectious disease? The issue is, how is that “informed” decision made? Do they listen to celebrities? Do they go to vigilante sites on the Web and see scare language? That is NOT informed. That is being mis-informed. I’m sorry, but I will judge someone if they deliberately choose misinformation.

      • Linda

        So your omniscience allows you to sovereignly determine what constitutes “misinformation?” I won’t judge you, but I do disagree with you, and I’m grateful this country still allows a few such freedoms, be they considered informed or misinformed in your estimations.

        • microlith

          So your omniscience allows you to sovereignly determine what constitutes “misinformation?”
          Generally, if the information is making claims that contradict known explanations but fail to defend the claims with any sort of actual evidence, or present evidence that is faulty, misinterpreted or misrepresented, then what you are reading is misinformation.

          This tends to be rampant in the anti-vaccination community, because they are not seeking knowledge but reinforcement of their existing views.

          • Linda

            Oh so you and Shelhl are married or perhaps employed by the same vaccine maker? Why else would “Microlith” feel obligated in this instance to jump to defend “Shelhl”? Odd.

          • microlith

            Oh so you and Shelhl are married or perhaps employed by the same vaccine maker?

            I see you’re angry enough now that you’re just resorting to baseless claims and personal attacks now?

            Why else would “Microlith” feel obligated in this instance to jump to defend “Shelhl”? Odd.

            It’s not “odd.” Your arguments are vacant of any logic and are empty, accusatory attacks.

          • Rod Craven

            Linda’ is just one of the ‘sheeple’ that the antivax trolls tend to accuse us of being. Obviously stuck in the Woo pit with Tenpenny and all the rest of the quacks.

          • Linda

            I guess if you call being at home cleaning up my vaccine-damaged kid’s diarrhea on a regular basis, the “Woo pit,” then yes, that’s where I’m stuck.

          • Linda

            My argument that people must have the freedom to choose their medical treatments and to be informed of the risks of either taking medication or not, is neither vacant nor empty. It’s something that impacts us all. And as long as vaccine makers cannot identify which people are at high risk and should be exempted from certain vaccines, forced vaccination is unethical. The earlier analogy to risk in driving a car is not even close to parallel since there are no mandates for people to drive a car, or else risk their freedom to attend school, see a physician, etc. If I sound angry then that would be correct. Vaccines ruined my daughter’s health for life. What parent would not be angry about that?

          • jmh5204

            They do inform, in fact it’s the law that a VIS be handed to anyone signing for a vaccine to speak of the risks of receiving it. It’s 1) not our fault if people believe things are without risk. 2) NOTHING is inherently without risk. Do you wear a seatbelt when riding in a car? Are you aware of the fact that seatbelts reduce the risk of death by ~50%, however there are rare occurences when someone is trapped by their selt belt and dies? That’s risk-benefit. Perhaps, seat belts should come with warnings about the dangers of being trapped in a burning vehicle by one?
            VIS statements, in addition to the potential risks of vaccines, should all be required to include pictures of the diseases they are meant to prevent, and all the statistics on death rates before the advent of vaccination. INFORMED consent, yes?

          • Linda

            It’s odd to me how often analogies with cars or car seats to vaccines are used because no US citizen is required to use a car. It’s a choice. They can ride a bike, or take the subway, or walk or use whatever means of transportation they wish. People can live underground or in the desert and try to avoid cars all together if they wish. Any way you slice it, car usage is an option, not a mandate.

          • jmh5204

            My point wasn’t about that. My point was about how stupid it is to risk not doing something that has been overwhelmingly shown to be a benefit, but has on rare occassion caused harm. You missed that. You aren’t the critical thinker you claim to be.

            But to address your point, yes, driving a car is an option. So is being a paticipating member of society. If you drive a car, you are mandated to wear a seatbelt. So yes, there are laws put on optional choices. Your argument is weak.

          • Linda

            I’ve made no such claim. I’ve simply responded to posts, based upon my personal experience and opinions. And I’ve done so in a very transparent way. I suppose readers can decide for themselves what they believe is “weak” “ignorant” “anti-science” or even “bulldust” (some of the insults hurled towards me in these posts) But I typically don’t find very convincing people who have to resort to name-calling to try to make a point.

          • jmh5204

            No, but it’s clear you have no understanding epidemiology, immunology, statistics, and basic germ theory. I’d like to point out that you also asked which vaccine companies people work for.
            You call us out for getting frustrated and resorting to childish statements while dealing with people with incomplete, frankly childish, understanding of all the above subjects–you obviously have no idea what constitutes ethical, based on your response to me below–yet you yourself asked what vaccine companies people work for. At the end of the day, that’s what they all run to: anyone who supports vaccination and understands the science behind it work for “Big Pharma.” Goldberg’s Razor?
            And I’ll admit, I have no respect for you and the groups where you spend your time. None. Now I’m being transparent.

          • Linda

            More name-calling and condescension, finished off with a declaration of hate. Wow. Clearly you are passionate about this topic beyond objectivity. But perhaps due to your profession you’d be supportive of research studying correlations between cancer and viruses. That’s another one where the incidence of cancer and types of viruses could be compared in vaccinated vs nonvaccinated populations.

          • jmh5204

            I am, actually! Particularly two, HPV of course (we can vaccinate against four of the strains that cause over 70% of cervical cancer), and HTLV-1, which has been linked to adult t-cell leukemia in intravenous drug users. It’s absolutely fascinating.

          • dawn

            have you considered that we know of about 140 strains of hpv…so now they vaccinate for 4 of them..what about the other 136 strains? what if they are more virulent and we have just knocked out the less virulent ones that might have been keeping those under control…sort of like gut bacteria if there is imbalance there is illness…and this argument using small pox is not even correct..we were vaccinated against cow pox…so meanwhile what if we were separately developing herd immunity against small pox and it is gone because we are not pushing a vaccine with it that continues to perpetuate the disease..some say that pertussis has not developed herd immunity because of the vaccines..they keep the infection going rather than allow us to get sick and to build herd immunity naturally..and by the way…i dont trust government to always tell me the truth…do you?

          • zuto

            I get paid to do science, in hospitals, no less. I use epidemiology, immunology, statistics and advanced germ theory to earn a living. If you believe in your vaccines, go for it. The vaccines will protect you. The 1.8% +/- of kindergartners who don’t have all their vaccines should not pose any threat to you or your vaccinated loved ones. If your vaccines don’t work, why are they on the market?

            Linda stated that her child was injured by a vaccine – not just a little boo-boo, but seizures and Gi complications (no, not just diarrhea, either). Several billion dollars have been paid out in compensation to people who have been injured by vaccines, which do have known risks – rare reactions, but they do exist. Many people who are injured by vaccines receive zero compensation because all parties involved in delivering vaccines have been absolved of responsibility.

            It seems fair that LInda be allowed to make an educated choice to not expose her injured child to further risk through vaccination. If you have your vaccination and it works as advertised, what’s your beef? You think it is a good idea to keep vaccinating the child to see if further injury will occur? The choice to continue doing something known to have caused injury (and at this point you have no information to make a determination if the injury is significant and caused by a vaccine) appears to be every bit as negligent or abusive as declining a vaccination.

            Just because someone doesn’t toe your line doesn’t mean he or she is not making an informed choice.

          • Cassandra

            Just because risks are not 100% unavoidable in life doesnt mean we shouldnt try to lower our risks. You vaccine people are always like, “water carries risk, breathing air carries risk etc so stop drinking water and stop breathing.” Just because life has risk doesnt mean Im not going to stop trying to avoid as many risks as possible, it doesnt have to be an all or nothing approach. In fact I do wear seat belts in cars to limit risks just like I avoid vaccines to limit risks. Same mentality for me. I dont wake up in the morning and say “you know what im going to drink some random chemical under my bathroom sink because to hell with it, everything has risk and there is nothing I can do about it!” Oh and by the way I dont own or drive a car and rarely ride in one!

          • S G, DC

            Cassandra, we are talking about lives here, not air, water, etc.

          • dawn

            what are you reading YOURSELF that tells you that vaccination has overwhelming benefit…get a clean source before claiming this..and in fact do you realize that some vaccines from my past like sv40 came from a supposedly safe polio vaccine? this is true read about it..dont take my word ..non smokers get lung cancer too and sv40 from vaccine is linked and found in those tumors…and do oyu know that most who get polio recovered? do you know that some think guilliane barr is a type of polio …

          • dawn

            i suspect that the reason the higher incomes have lower vaccination rate is probably due to higher education…the more you learn the less you are likely to trust someone else word…education can be from various means..just dont let your doctor or pharmaceutical company be your only source of education..i cannot trust my doctor to say no more vaccination …one of my kids had seizures and her pediatrician said no more vaccines..well he is dead now and her new one said no big deal!! no big deal my A…no vaccines period for us…and if my kids are sick i take care of them…

          • and people shorter than what was it? 4 foot 11 are exempt from seat belts becaus they will get strangled or harmed more than helped in an accident… this is what you are missing in your vaccine frenzy

          • jmh5204

            Because there was significant evidence of an increased risk? They are required to have booster seats though. Again, because of evidence. Thank goodness Big Seatbelt wasn’t able to conspire with the government to cover it up.

          • Cassandra

            Actually the car companies fought against the seatbelt mandate for cars being sold in The US!

          • Caped Crusader

            Well drug companies do employ bloggers– and it is a very real question to pose to this kind of back and forth, no dialogue, the same recognizable points ad nauseum. 😀

          • dawn

            if you do some research independent of what pharmaceutical company tells you see if you dont change your mind..or better yet let one of your kids be vaccine injured…then you WILL change your mind i promise you that…as a scientist and a parent i say the choice is a valid one and parents that get vaccines without considering the risks are foolish our genetics play a huge role and some genetics means you will not detox from vaccine additives…have you ever seen anyone with autoimmune diseases? our bodies were not meant to get sick wtih chicken pox measles and mumps and rubella all on same day yet vaccines give these combo vax..in fact the rise in autoimmune issues like thyroid and lupus and RA can be attributed in large degree to the over stimulation at too young of an age by vaccines

          • Brianbrain

            Why dont you have a look at the Governments own ADVERSE events information which may wake you up ..

            sanevax.org and it is only one vaccine Gardasil..Nd 5 young girls in OZ .

            One lass has had her ovary’s atrophy and here is the medical story…
            http://users.adam.com.au/brianbrain/garda1.htm

      • dawn

        if your vaccination works you will be protected right? fact is many of these are simple childhood diseases that does not lead to harm other than being sick for 3 or 4 days…i lived in a time when vaccinations were not available or pushed so i had pertussis measles mumpts rubella and chicken pox …fact is big deal…we got to stay home from school…and now i have PERMANENT immunity while vaccinated do NOT..herd immunity does not come from vaccination alone but rather more importantly is the immunity acquired by getting the disease…the risk of complications from chicken pox is way less than the risk of getting a vaccine that we do not know the long term effects…i am so thankful that we have the freedom to chose in america…if my child gets chicken pox i will make them chicken soup soak them in a tub and keep them home from school…

    • Patrick Thomas
    • Patrick Thomas

      Regarding vaccines, we were told these
      things with a straight-face by experts and officials (compilation):

      http://www.dailypaul.com/194235/regardng-vaccine-injuries-we-were-told-these-things-with-a-straight-face-by-experts-and-officials

    • Patrick Thomas

      Vaccines are causing bacteria and viruses to mutate in similar manner to antibiotics. Here’s a collection of mainstream news stories and mainstream studies which confirm this fact:

      http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topics/are-vaccines-causing-mutations-creating-a-similar-problem-as

    • Patrick Thomas

      The whooping cough vaccine is making matters worse. It’s causing the bacteria to mutate and the overwhelming majority who catch whooping cough are fully vaccinated. Here’s a compilation of mainstream news stories and studies:

      https://www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoughVaccineIsMakingMattersWorse

  • Weltanschauung
    • paulc1978

      Stop citing Infowars. It’s unbecoming that you find yourself to be a skeptic yet point to a site that is for the tinfoil hat crowd.

      • Weltanschauung

        You use the word “tinfoil hat” in the same vein that racists call African-Americans the N word.

        • Hhotelconsult

          I feel Godwin’s Law coming on….

        • geraldfnord

          .

  • Joanna Daly

    What about the increase in adult auto immune disease? There should be research into this possible long term effect of vaccines on the young.

    • jmh5204

      Possibly those people would have been picked off by one of these diseases in the past, but as they no longer kill in the numbers they did, we have more individuals surviving to adulthood. Anything can be found in a large enough sample size.

      And they are studying the causes. PubMed is a wonderful resource for peer-reviewed literature.

  • Mrs. Eccentric

    As an immuno-compromised individual i would like the right to be able to go to the grocery store without taking my life into my hands – without exposure to all manner of people in the throws of full-blown respiratory infection (which could trigger my life-threatening asthma), people not vaccinated against pertussis (ditto), and so on.

    What about the rights of the individuals around Typhoid Mary? steph

    • SlySy

      Dear madam, I am sorry to inform you these people don’t give a flying fig about your health issues. No amount of pleading, reasoning or appeal to decency will sway their zealot selves. Now if people like yourself ever got sick because of one of these irresponsible morons, and the law came down on them like a ton of bricks, making them pay dearly both in money and in jail time, I can assure you at that point they’d start caring. Of course if something bad happened to you, none of it would repay you for your health or god forbid, your life. But maybe hitting them where it hurts will prevent harm to others. And then maybe not. After all we punish people who drive drunk and still some insist in doing it regardless. I guess sometimes decency and responsibility is simply beyond some people’s brain function.

      • Truth

        Clearly all you care about is corporate profits. Go ahead, pretend to care about people. You don’t. We see through your sham.

        • SlySy

          Yes because they give me a percentage for every vaccine. Good grief what a moronic comment.

        • jmh5204

          Look up the cost of an overnight stay in a NICU for pertussis. For one night. Then look to see how many children could be vaccinated for that cost. There is far more money to be made in treatment for rampant disease than in prevention.

          • Cassandra

            That math would only be correct if it was a guarantee that not getting the vaccine gives you the disease (which all the children im me and my husbands family can assure you is not the case!)

      • Mrs. Eccentric

        Hi Sy.

        well, all these days after my very small comment, it looks like your opinion has been, sadly, confirmed.

        Linda, i find it especially sad that you have no sympathy for a person in my situation, as my health troubles are very highly correlated with rampant overuse of pesticides in the Central Valley (and no, no one asked me if i wanted to get lifelong illness so they could make a quick buck). Linda, how seriously would you take a person who ‘diagnosed’ your own child’s condition based on the (deliberately) scant information i provided in my own comment? That is how seriously i take you.

        Cassandra, Barbara, and others – thank you for taking the time to reply to me. However, our time would be best spent by you reading what i actually wrote. I neither stated nor implied any of what you so readily attributed to me.

        “Not everything is up to choice if you want to be a part of a functioning society.” jmh5204 gets at the heart of the matter here – we need to function as a COMMUNITY in these decisions. If everyone operates completely selfishly, herd immunity fails, pollutions runs rampant, no one knows what is in their food due to lack of regulation and labeling, etc. Air pollution is torturing (i have asthma, believe me it’s horrible that any kid has to go thru that) and killing kids in the Central Valley, i don’t know how all of you ‘just live healthy’ types think you are going to escape crap in the air.

        Look at polar bears and alligators turning up with genital abnormalities – i don’t think it was because they got vaccinated, no, it’s because of all the crap we are spewing everywhere – once it gets into the air and water no one can hide.

        Of course pollution is only “one piece of the puzzle” (sorry, can’t remember who used that analogy). We need to, *** as a society *** , clean up the environment of weird chemicals as well as provide good sanitation and clean food and water for EVERYBODY, good preventative medical care, safe places to exercise, and also vaccinate. People who have dire medical needs, from whatever reason, should be provided good medical and nursing care (including respite for care providers).

        But people who think “I’ll just do what i think is good for ME, who cares about anyone else” are strictly part of the problem. And they won’t even avoid the ills they try to escape – because that only happens when we all work towards what is best for everyone. (And yes, i wash my hands and practice hand awareness, stay home if i am infectious, get vaccines, buy health insurance, etc. All i ask is that people wash their hands, don’t sneeze on me/things people will touch, and stay home when they’re obviously a bag of germs).

        Anyone who reads to the end – have a pony!! 🙂 steph

    • Linda

      It sounds to me like you have bigger personal health issues to worry
      about than someone you may pass by who did not get a pertussis shot. To date, there have been no studies comparing the health or contagion of vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations in the same living conditions. To date, there have been no studies of comparison of long-term immune-system changes and disorders or genetics, of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations. To date, there remain many, many unanswered questions surrounding the safety and effectiveness of certain vaccines, including precisely which people stand to get injured by them.

      • microlith

        It sounds to me like you have bigger personal health issues to worry about than someone you may pass by who did not get a pertussis shot.

        No, that may be their only concern.

        To date, there have been no studies comparing the health or contagion of vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations in the same living conditions.

        Huh? How does the fact that we track vaccination rates and incidents of disease annually not count?

        To date, there have been no studies of comparison of long-term immune-system changes and disorders or genetics, of vaccinated vs.
        unvaccinated populations.

        You do realize that such tests are untenable and unethical, right?

        here remain many, many unanswered questions surrounding the safety and effectiveness of certain vaccines, including precisely which people stand to get injured by them.

        OR we know that the likelihood of injury is low, and that the vast, vast majority of people will have no problem with the vaccines. Vaccines that actually caused swaths of damage would be caught quickly.

      • jmh5204

        1) Diseases are one of the biggest concerns of people with compromised immune systems. I work in a cancer hospital. Do you have any idea how many people die of preventable diseases before their cancer kills them, because their immune systems are compromised?
        2) You can do that study, it’s unethical and immoral because we know vaccines prevent disease, just like we know hand washing prevents infections in hospital inpatients and sterlizing surgical instruments reduces surgical site infections. There hasn’t been a randomized controlled study on that. We know these things from Semmelweis in the 19th century. What you want is akin to doing a randomized study of surgical scrubs or instrument sterilization to make sure the substances used to clean our hands or the instrument actually don’t cause statistically significant problems in the patient population. We know that not washing something properly could kill someone, it’s reprehensible to leave someone open to that, just as it would be to leave a significant portion of the population open to infectious disease when we can prevent.
        Let’s say, for sake of argument, it wasn’t unethical and evil to do a randomized study of vaccinated vs. unvaccinate children; you would be required to randomized your child into either group! I know I’m not willing to allow my child to be randomized into an unvaccinated group, but I will freely admit that. Would you allow your child to be randomized into the vaccinated group? With your current knowledge. I’m curious. If you’re willing to do what you ask of those who understand how these diseases destroyed people, or who have been to a graveyard where the majority of the graves were for children under three.

        • Linda

          Point is, there are risks both ways. That’s why it’s best to let people decide for themselves. You mentioned handwashing as important and a form of prevention. Do we have government mandates out on kids washing their hands before coming to school, and at specific time periods? No. It’s recommended, and people are provided education and encouragement to do so. But in the end, individuals control their handwashing practices. Individuals also control what they eat, drink, and the types of medicines and treatments they wish to pursue. Vaccines are a form of medical treatment, and deserve the same level of scrutiny as any medicine. And people deserve the freedom to decide which vaccines they wish to take. It’s absolutely not unethical to do a study of vaccinated vs unvaccinated in the US. It should have been done a very long time ago, and at this point I don’t think you’d have a hard time finding volunteers.

          • jmh5204

            Yes, and to fully encapsulate that risk, we’d have to include the entire world, and countries where these diseases run rampant. The US wouldn’t work, because all it would take is one person to bring something in, and then you are exposing children to things we know we can prevent. BOTH those sitiuations are unethical.
            You’re second point, children? No. I will say a health care worker can be charged with malpractice if discovered they weren’t performing proper hand hygiene before treatment. Or someone who deliberately gets on a plane with TB after being told to stay home can. and have, been held legally accountable. There are laws on these things, maybe just not on the realm you are familiar with. Not everything is up to choice if you want to be a part of a functioning society.
            Finally, you didn’t answer my question. Would you allow your child to be randomized the way you expect others to? Remember, in order to fully understand the risk, this can’t be in a sterile environment. A study to tell us what we need to know needs to include all the risks, as you stated, because as you stated, everything has risks, and risk discovered without the context of an opposing risk–death–is worthless. I suspect your belief that you wouldn’t have a hard time finding volunteers willing to go unvaccinated is because you spend the majority of your time with the minority population who supports your beliefs, rather than the actual population. You see a misrepresentation of what people think, the same way you see a misrepresentation of the small percentage of people who are unfortunately injured by vaccines because it happened to you. That’s the way the human brain works. Would you, and, they be willing to randomize their child to be vaccinated?

          • Linda

            I’ve already lived the randomized vaccination “study” which is in the US. What needs to happen now is an analysis of the health and wellness of vaccinated sample populations in the US versus nonvaccinated sample populations in the US. These sample populations already exist, and as I’ve already repeatedly stated, no, I do not believe in forced vaccination under any circumstances.

        • Cassandra

          I know people with cancer die from chemo and radiation and the cancer industry is a fraud! youtube or netflix Burzynski and you will find out your career is a murderous fraud!

          • jmh5204

            Yes, they do. Chemotherapy and radiation are, essentially, poison, given in the hopes that it will destroy fast growing cancer cells that aren’t mediated by normal check-and-balances before the organism dies. Vincristine, platinum, alkyl sulfonates, none of them are good for you. The regimen is given based on time and dose making the poison. (Hormone therapies, such as Tamoxifen are something different all together, they can pin-point and do less damage but are also fairly disease-specific). Unfortunately, these cocktails also kill healthy fast-growing cells, such as those produced by the bone marrow or in the GI tract, hence why these people are immunocompromised and hospitals need people in my profession to work on protecting them. Chemotherapy and radiation are dangerous and only given when necessary (aside from that guy who was just arrested for false diagnoses. Eeesh.) because they can kill someone. But cancer kills more often, and the evidence has shown these work.

            Burzynski is a fraud. There is no evidence outside of anecdotal claims that antineoplastons do anything of value. His studies have not been well-designed and therefore no support can be successfully gleaned from them, and hospitals who have tried to replicate his claims cannot. He needs to put up a proper-trial while still providing standard of care, and perhaps people will take him seriously.

            Also, I don’t get medical advice from YouTube or Netflix, thanks.

          • Cassandra

            Its not getting medical advice from netflix, it is watching a documentary about how a doctor saves lives of people who would otherwise be dead! And how the medical board has tried to stop him and remove his license half a dozen times and has failed because they have no reason to do so and because his patients protest for him and testify on his behalf! The medical community wants him and his treatment to go away because it is a threat to their $$$$

    • Barbara Kolander

      Do you think that people who get vaccines don’t get sick and carry germs? I have found that the keys to avoiding illness are to eat very well, get plenty of natural sunlight and regular exercise, avoid closed places (offices and airplanes) and when you have to be in them to supplement with Vit C and Zinc. Handwashing with regular soap and hot water is the single most effective way to avoid becoming ill from germs. Vaccines cause more problems that not and are not responsible for a decline in infectious diseases.

    • Cassandra

      So I should risk my childs health with vaccines for your health? How selfish. All the child in me and my husbands children are unvaccinated and yet everyone around isnt dropping dead like flies and they are the healthiest children! hmmm

  • Will

    Here is a link to 70 studies in peer reviewed journals linking vaccines to Autism and other neurodevelopmental issues kids are facing today: http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-evidence-of-any-link.html
    Do you ever wonder why the CDC keeps recommending more and more vaccines? Have you thought about why in the past 25-30 years the Autistic rate in our country has gone from roughly 1/1000 to 1/50 kids? Kids today receive 49 doses of vaccine by the time they are 5. In the 70’s and 80’s kids received about 16 doses…and you did not see more childhood illness back then compared to now. Why so many more doses? It is NOT making our children healthier. In fact, it is decreasing their overall health.

    • jdm79
    • geraldfnord

      Anecdote typical of past realities:
      I was under the scrutiny of the school system for about twelve years, spent a lot of time with speech therapists, haven’t changed all that much since then (mid-’60s to late ’70s), and was never diagnosed as ‘autistic’, and I’m not sure that anyone used the term ‘autistic spectrum’ then…now, and for about a decade, it’s kind of obvious to everyone I meet and with whom I interact for any length of time who is educated about the ‘…spectrum’ that I’m on it, higher- or lower-functioning depending on mood and energy-level. (I can pass for normal, but let me get too tired and again with the hand-flaps, rocking, obsessive pursuit of every version of ‘Die Gedanken sind Frei’ on YouTube….)

      All of this to say that I think we see autism much better than we had done, are less likely to misdiagnose it as other mental disorders (as my class-mates did—they screamed ‘professor’ at me only for a few years between ‘retard’ and ‘faggot’).

    • jmh5204

      I could link to an actual peer-reviewed database, PubMed, that isn’t a blog called “adventures in autism” that will show many larger studies showing the exact opposite. Also, not listed on a blog.

      • Will

        Please do. I wonder how many of those articles are actually unbiased and have no link to Pharma. Regardless of the webpage showing the data, the 70+ studies are from peer reviewed literature. The big picture here is that many, many more kids are suffering from neurodevelopmental issues today. Give me your best assessment for this issue….and don’t tell me it is because “we are more aware and have better ways to diagnose”. Why have we gone from an Autistic rate of 1/1000 in the early 80’s to 1/50 kids in 2013. Don’t tell me is genetics either, because we all know that is a lie. I am open to your interpretation…

      • Richids Coulter

        Actually you can find ALL the studies listed in Will’s link to “Adventures in Autism” on PubMed, I don’t think you thought that retort all the way through though did you jmh5204?

  • Ehkzu

    Speaking as someone with a BA in Sociology, I see the anti-vaccine crowd showing the same features as the crowd denying human-caused climate change, the “9/11 was a government conspiracy” crowd, and, abroad, the European “Every problem everywhere is America’s fault” crowd.

    Eric Hoffer’s 1951 book “The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements” describes these groups perfectly.

    And if you read down this thread, the things such people say here and their prickliness and aggressiveness fit Hoffer’s model perfectly.

    Our public education system truly has failed to teach critical thinking skills and basic numeracy.

    But the real crime isn’t these people wanting sent their little epidemiological time bombs to public schools–it’s a craven state legislature that allows them to do so by passing a law that lets them.

    • Truth

      The belief that Muslims did 9/11 is a perfect example of mass psychosis, driven by cowardice. The science shows it was an inside job, if only you had the courage to look at the details.

  • geraldfnord

    Vaccines are so powerful for good purposes, and the Universe so uncaring about our welfare, that it would be very surprising if they could never cause any problems. Anything powerful enough to be useful—e.g. fire, fission, religion, heroin,television—is powerful enough to have dangers associated with it, for the simple reason that the Universe was not made for us, but we for our genes’ purposes, and our genes value only their reproduction. (They have a simple solution for childhood diseases: breed as much as possible consistent with our very long childhoods, hence the enormous human sex-drive.)

    (I am not quite as angry at those who act as if vaccines had to be blameless in order to be a good idea as I am at people who claim that marihuana should be legal because it’s ‘harmless’ because it’s especially stupid to be stupid even before your side seem to be winning.)

    That being so, I grew up on my mother’s stories of losing one or two class-mates every year in elementary school and (in much larger classes) high-school.I have seen some of the reputable-seeming statistics, and they seem to indicate that vaccines’ usefulnesses overwhelmingly supervenes what negative reactions or sequeelæ are found…which can be a tragedy for the family involved, but it buys many fewer tragedies for everyone else, and this can’t be used as a threat by State or corporate power, and is exactly the sort of risk we often take…which is not to say that we shouldn’t invest in (say) genetic and other tests for susceptibility to what ill effects are known, and careful monitoring of the product for purity and activity.

  • Wayne Rohde

    Medical Fascism

    • microlith

      Yeah, how dare they prevent needless illness!

    • SlySy

      Not at all. You are free to not vaccinate your kids. And the rest of us are free to not want your disease spreading kids anywhere near us. It doesn’t get more free than that.

      • Richids Coulter

        That’s why you can keep your kids at home Sy2502, because clearly you don’t have much confidence in the vaccines you’re taking.

  • Barbara Kolander

    RE: “Why are vaccination opt-out rates rising?” Because intelligent people can no longer deny how badly vaccines are harming babies and children. If a doctor tries to force or intimidate me to vaccinate my totally well and healthy unvaccinated children, I will leave their office never to return. All people need to do is look at the ingredients in vaccines to see how ridiculous it is to have them injected into innocent babies.

    • microlith

      Because intelligent people can no longer deny how badly vaccines are harming babies and children.

      Oh look, another anti-vaxxer. I think you’re mistaken, it’s “intelligent” people, not intelligent people. Reading misinformation and half truths don’t make you intelligent.

      If a doctor tries to force or intimidate me to vaccinate my totally well and healthy unvaccinated children, I will leave their office never to return.

      And as such your children should not be allowed in public schools as they are a pathological risk to others.

      All people need to do is look at the ingredients in vaccines to see how ridiculous it is to have them injected into innocent babies.

      Thus your ignorance is revealed. You have nothing to argue but emotion, not a scrap of “intelligence” to be found.

      • Barbara Kolander

        I don’t send my children to public indoctrination camps ie: public schools. But if vaccines actually worked then your vaccinated kids would have nothing to worry about would they? You have proven your own self to be both ignorant and uneducated, and you are the one who obviously becomes emotional about this, to the point that you seem to want to lash out at people you don’t even know, just because they don’t make the same
        choices you do. I on the other hand am completely calm because I know what I’m choosing is right for my family. I don’t make decisions regarding my precious children based on “emotion”.. but on hard facts and solid evidence. I have more research behind my choices than someone like you could ever hope to acquire, because I take my role as a parent and protector more seriously than any other thing in my existence. Therefore I have put the time and energy into studying both sides of this sensitive, and ultra important subject. You do not have to like what I do, nor do you have any right to judge what other parents choose with their own children. Good luck with all that holier-than-thou judgement.

        • Truth

          All of a sudden, a bunch of people appear in the Forum online discussion area who otherwise rarely bother, to insist that vaccines are safe and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot, and any news source is bogus other than NPR, whose guests are insisting on a police state solution.

          Extraordinary. Smells fishy.

          • jmh5204

            That’s because I don’t spend my time trolling for conspiracy theories amongst like-minded peers. I comment where I’m knowledgeable
            and the news crossed my path. And I perfer peer-reviewed journals over NPR, truthfully. Or AoA, AVN, or the worthless NVIC, is that where you see so many familiar posters?

        • jmh5204

          I worry about those who can’t be vaccinated and will be killed from a disease your child may be strong enough to survive. And I have looked at the ingredients, and I do understand them. Tell me, do you know the chemical difference between ethyl mercury and methyl mercury and how each are processed by the body? Half-lives? Not that it matters anymore. Or how your body synthesizes more formaldehyde in a day to make amino acids than would ever be in a vaccine? Or how it’s in every apple you eat?

          • Barbara Kolander

            Oh, it matters alright. Thanks for your more polite comment than most who come on here and spout angrily. 😉 I have done 25 plus years of research, and have seen for myself what has occurred in society as a result of the massive vaccine onslaught. People don’t realize the true facts, especially that the diseases were on the decline before the intro of vaccines.. and that the vaccines cause more damage that the diseases.. and that the alleged immunity provided wears off and the diseases are far worse to get as adults… etc and so on. I could cite so many examples, but it usualy falls on deaf ears. It’s really up to parents to fully research the issue as I have, and make the decision based on that research and especially gut instinct. We eat well, avoid TV, and go to the doctor for emergencies only. My unvaccinated children are the healthiest people I know. Clear, bright, no health issues at all. None. If we catch a cold or whatever it is gone in a couple of days. They have real immunity from breastfeeding and real, organic, locally produced non-junk FOOD, vitamins, herbs and homeopathics if needed. No fast “food”, soda, OTC meds, etc. Call it what you want, but it works for us.

          • Richids Coulter

            You mean like how more mercury from ethyl mercury ends up in the brain where it’s rapidly de-ethylated into the far more toxic inorganic mercury which has a half life measured in years? (Burbacher, 2005)

            I’m guessing you were going to talk about how much faster thimerosal is removed from the body right? But to conclude that you’d have to conclude that the brain isn’t part of the body. The only correct conclusion is that ethyl mercury is more quickly removed from the BLOODSTREAM, not the body. Take the time to research the difference.

          • jmh5204

            Actually, because of the blood-brain barrier, pharmacologically, it is often considered separate from the body. Many things can’t cross.

            That study looked at comparing high levels of methyl and ethyl mercury in infant macaques. It’s right in that methyl and ethyl can’t be compared, which is what is done by rapid anti-vaxxers. Numerous epidemoological studies have shown no relationships between neurological damage and thimerosal in populations of children who received it vs. didn’t. Your reference also contained this line: “Brain concentrations of total Hg were significantly lower by
            approximately 3-fold for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys when compared
            with the MeHg infants, whereas the average brain-to-blood concentration
            ratio was slightly higher for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (3.5 +/-
            0.5 vs. 2.5 +/- 0.3).” Soooo…..I don’t know how you got that?

          • Richids Coulter

            You mean like the Danish study where they started including out patient clinics where over 90% of diagnoses occur the year after removing thimerosal but didn’t let that fact be widely reported, so it looked like diagnoses went up after mercury was removed? Yes, you stick with the mainstream media’s reporting of the studies, I listen to what the authors have said. Epidemiology is not worth its weight in salt for detecting influences in autism as there are so many and it cannot pick up on small factors like genetic disposition, environmental influences, etc.

            As for Burbacher, I’m not sure what you’re finding so hard to grasp: “A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of
            inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%)”

          • jmh5204

            I will, thank you. 98% percent of the medical community who can successfully read a study know that the Burbacher “study” showed nothing, aside from a higher level of the least dangerous kinds of mercury (inorganic mercury, common in high school science labs where we learn about them), and a lower level of total mercury, including the bad ones. The organics Hg. That’s not to say inorganic mercury is harmless, or can’t cross the blood brain barrier. The only valid statement in that study is that the two can’t be compared when talking about effects (which he kind of procedes to do anyway, compairing levels of total Hg with levels of inorganic Hg), which is something the anti-vax scene can’t grasp as mercury seems to be mercury to them. My points were that just as alcohol isn’t alcohol, mercury is not just mercury. And a simple ratio can solve your 90% issue. It doesn’t matter how many overall if the rate is still the same (so long as both numbers are big enough). A number isn’t a pure number. 10 of 100 diagnoses is still the same rate as 100 out of 1000 diagnoses. The Danish study is not the only one. A Pub Med search would give some good examples.

          • Richids Coulter

            I think it’s you that has a hard time grasping the differences in types of mercury, the reason the amount of inorganic mercury ending up in brain tissue is important is because inorganic mercury has a half life measured in years, not days or weeks, so to suggest that having inorganic mercury building up in the brain over years is “the safe kind” is preposterous.

            I’m not aware that 98% of the medical community has been surveyed for their opinions on the Burbacher study so your comment is 100% redundant and unsupported.

          • Richids Coulter

            That’s the point, the rate was NOT the same, the NUMBER of diagnoses went up, not the rate.

          • Lilmisstruthseeker

            How about the Phenol used in the PCV/PPV and chicken pox vaccines? Do you know what that is? It was injected into Jews to kill them during WW2. Should that be in vaccines? If Thimerosal is so great, why would the CDC suggest against using it in vaccines in 1999? […]

          • jmh5204

            GODWIN’S LAW! There it is. So was sea water.

            To reduce a growing panic and prevent outbreaks. It was out by 2002, save flu vaccines.

            And here’s an actually accurate list of products that also contain phenol: air fresheners, aftershave, bronchial mists, chloroseptic throat spray,
            deodorants, feminine powders & sprays, hair spray, decongestants,
            mouthwash, aspirin, solvents, acne medications, antiseptics, calamine
            lotions, cleaning products, detergents, furniture polish, hair setting
            lotions, lice shampoo, polishes, cold capsules, all-purpose cleaners,
            aerosol disinfectants, anti-itching lotions , carnex , cosmetics,
            disinfectant cleaners, hand lotions, lip balms, sunscreen and lotions,
            insecticides, cough syrups…good luck navigating your household products!

          • Lilmisstruthseeker

            I have a list of ingredients each vaccine has from the CDC. They haven’t removed anything I listed from them.

            Also, I only use vinegar water to clean my house. We don’t use a lot of what you listed. It’s not hard to avoid that garbage. Anything else?

      • Richids Coulter

        Hey microlith maybe you can set up checkpoints at Target, Walmart, public transport places like buses, subways and trains, playgrounds, heck why not bump up the TSA staff and get one guard on every road to make sure you’re not even allowed out for a walk unless you’re vaccinated. Or better yet perhaps we just make anyone who isn’t up to date on their vaccines, regardless of whether it’s because they have a medical exemption like they would die immediately were they to take a dose of MMR due to severe egg allergies, and make them wear a giant symbol so others can cross the road, you know like how the Jews wore giant signs of David during Nazi Germany. I hope this analogy isn’t lost on someone like yourself.

      • Richids Coulter

        Hey microlith maybe you can set up checkpoints at Target, Walmart, public transport places like buses, subways and trains, playgrounds, in fact why not bump up the TSA staff and get one guard on every road to make sure you’re not even allowed out for a walk unless you’re vaccinated? Or better yet perhaps we just make anyone who isn’t up to date on their vaccines, regardless of whether it’s because they have a medical exemption like they would die immediately were they to take a dose of MMR due to severe egg allergies, and make them wear a giant symbol so others can cross the road, you know like how a certain religion’s people wore giant signs of David during a particular period of Germany history. I hope this analogy isn’t lost on someone like yourself.

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Caplan is as scary as they get. Forced vaccines, forced chemo, transhumanism… and he calls us “fringe” – go figure.

  • June Park

    My children will still opt out of vaccines bc it is not my right to force vaccines on them. Read child abuse laws, you cannot leave a mark. Read the 14th Amendment, we ALL have equal rights. Read proxy consent rules, only choices can be made in time of illness or if there is a defect. I have not even mentioned reading the inserts, studying vaers data, looking at who funded each study, looking at how the FDA tests products. Also, I have not described the hell that is vaccine injury. After having two injured children I know better and do better. I used to vaccinate, now I know the truth.

    • microlith

      My children will still opt out of vaccines bc it is not my right to force vaccines on them.

      You will opt your children out, and put them at risk. And put any of their friends and classmates at risk too.

      After having two injured children I know better and do better. I used to vaccinate, now I know the truth.

      Of course you simply think the vaccine is at fault, I doubt you can show that it actually was.

      But now you leave them to the tender mercies of disease directly. I would wish the worst on you, but unfortunately it would be your children who would suffer.

      • Lilmisstruthseeker

        Again, how is an unvaccinated child putting a vaccinated child at risk? If vaccines = immunity, vaccinated children are not at risk!

      • Richids Coulter

        Millions of taxpayer money has been awarded to families of vaccine-damaged children and it was absolutely shown that the vaccine was the CAUSE.

        Where do you get off being so callous? I’d wish you harm but I understand it’s 100 years of intense propaganda and pseudoscience that have made you so ignorant of the real dangers vaccines can carry. I suppose vaccines are the one pharmaceutical product that’s just magically safe right?

  • Cassandra

    Fortunately unvaccinated children are healthier and dont need to see pediatricians as much! : )

    • microlith

      Except when they catch measles or pertussis. Or maybe later it’ll be meningitis of some sort. Or HPV, or Hepatitis!

      • Lilmisstruthseeker

        Did you know that measles is a lot like chicken pox?

        I grew up in a world where there was no chicken pox vaccine. All of us just got together when one of us had the chicken pox so we would all be exposed to it, go through a week of itchy bumps and then forever be immune!

        Some of the crap they vaccinate people for is not necessary. Measles is very much like the chicken pox.

        Also, if you did research, you would find that people can get measles, mumps or rubela from getting the MMR. So, no one is immune, even if you are vaccinated. To put so much faith in a vaccine or medicine as a whole is foolish.

        • Richids Coulter

          This is correct, as MMR is a live virus vaccine. Also I agree on chicken pox, it wasn’t considered a “deadly disease” until 1995 which just happened to be when the first vaccine came out. This was also the first “DNA” vaccine and it was shortly thereafter a bump in ASD diagnoses was observed. Chicken pox, I had it aged 17 when it’s supposed to be worse than getting it as a kid, I got itchy and missed one week of school, big deal!

    • jmh5204

      Sources? I’d like to see the peer-reviewed literature on this.

      • Richids Coulter

        Oh the sources that people like yourself will consider “trustworthy” while others consider “most financially compensated by industry” will refuse to run a fully controlled test because they are scared of the results, so they stand behind some bogus “moral” excuse when the unvaccinated children will remain unvaccinated regardless. It’s a cop out for industry. Unscientific surveys have concluded the health issue to be true though, less allergies, less neurological conditions, the things you’d expect once you’ve looked through the vaccine excipient list hosted on the CDC’s website.

  • Alex Sack

    I’m getting together a class action lawsuit against God for murdering trillions of people. Who would like to join?

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Pharma has a liability shield and so do doctors. And now they want to sue people who refuse a pharmaceutical product?

  • Luta

    EDUCATE BEFORE VACCINATE
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/18/us-smallpox-boy-idUSN1744524120070518
    People who get vaccinated sheds live virus to other people and spread the disease they’ve got vaccinated.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf
    Above is the list of vaccine excipients (CDC site). Do you really think a child can bear such slaughter of toxicines in his body? Once you vax you can’t sue your doctor or the vaccine manufactures if you get a vaccine reaction/injury and disability. They are free of liability. There must be a reason for it, uhm?

    It is a true crime to sue parents for refusing to allow such deadly and cancer forming toxins to be injected in their children’s bodies.

    • microlith

      Note that your first article was not the result of exposure to smallpox but a virus called vaccina. Also note this:

      People with eczema and immune conditions can develop a serious reaction if they are vaccinated or come into contact with the blisters of a vaccinated person.

      So that was an unfortunate mistake, and the child ended up fine. And this:

      On Thursday a panel of FDA advisers recommended
      approval of a new smallpox vaccine made by Acambis Plc that is designed to be safer than the old vaccine.

      So in the end science wins. Vaccines can be improved, but refusing to vaccinate just makes you a living, breathing, contagion-carrying problem.

      Once you vax you can’t sue your doctor or the vaccine manufactures if you get a vaccine reaction/injury and disability. They are free of liability. There must be a reason for it, uhm?

      Yes, because reactions are guaranteed to occur in a population. Said reactions can be minimized, but they cannot be eliminated. Additionally you can’t predict exactly who will have a reaction, the best you can do is avoid the obvious cases.

      And for those who can’t be vaccinated for known reasons, the only thing you can do is hope some unvaccinated child (left so by irresponsible parents) doesn’t drag the virus around and infect those who can’t be vaccinated.

      It is a true crime to sue parents for refusing to allow such deadly and cancer forming toxins to be injected in their children’s bodies.

      It is a greater crime to spread lies, ignorance, misinformation and encourage the increase in preventable pathology.

  • leftarm

    I have three children and recently my daughter came down with a virus that caused severe respiratory distress, causing her to stay in the hospital for 4 days. After being released, her left arm stopped moving. After weeks of tests they finally figured out that her spinal cord had been attacked, only in the motor neurons. A diagnosis of poliomyelitis, although “Polio” has been eradicated. She is completely up to date on her immunizations, but is one of the rare few that have been affected by either a new strain of modern day polio or a virus that has not yet been rampant. Her arm is paralyzed, we have spent over two months in hospitals, over $500,000 in healthcare costs. If I could have prevented this with a vaccine, I would have. Her life will never be the same. Australia is now reporting cases very similar to what my daughter suffered, saying it is a strain of hand, foot, mouth disease. I think our generation has not really experienced an epidemic and if they did, they would feel differently about vaccines. I hate the fact that healthcare and pharmaceuticals are such big business, but we can’t sacrifice our children’s health for the sake of making a statement.

    • LauraCondon

      What state are you in?

      • leftarm

        California

    • Richids Coulter

      You probably could have prevented it with IV-C but I’m guessing you won’t consider any possibilities outside of vaccines and prescription drugs based on your post.

      • leftarm

        What is IV-C? You shouldn’t make any assumptions based on a 100 word post.

        • Richids Coulter

          Do some research on Klenner’s studies into IV-C, you’ll figure out what it is quite quickly.

          My generation hasn’t experienced an epidemic and won’t until it’s one that’s man made, epidemics happen during times of severely poor living conditions which is why we saw spikes in deaths from disease during WWI and WWII.

          If she wasn’t completely up to date on immunizations, perhaps her body might have been able to fight off this infection more quickly.

          USA is over-vaccinated and over-fed GMO foods and has more fast foods and packaged foods in the supermarket using more ingredients banned in many other places in the world that anywhere else I can think of, yet when they talk about trying to keep their kids safe it’s always coming back to vaccines and blaming parents who opt out, it’s absolutely ridiculous.

          People should start suing parents who buy Pepsi products, or Kellogg’s GMO cereals like Corn Flakes, if unvaccinated parents are going to get sued.

    • MadWorld

      I’m sorry for your situation. But, there are cases of the Oral Polio Vaccine causing polio in children in India and elsewhere.

  • Andrea Anderson

    What is up with the rude commentary toward Barbara Loe Fisher? All guests should be treated with respect.

  • Rod Craven

    Good on that Marin County peds dept. Why should people who deliberately abrigate themselves from mainstram society expect special treatment? If society mandates for kids and even adults to be vaccinated to enter school or work, then so be it. There is no choice.

    People think they have the rights by not vaccinating to hold others to ransom – what about those who are doing the right thing in the name of health and welfare?

    Disease kills, vaccines don’t. That is fact. Scientific fact.

    • Lilmisstruthseeker

      You need to do more of that scientific research. Vaccines have killed many. The HPV vaccine is one of the biggest culprits of this fact on the rise right now.

      Many deaths that have happened due to vaccines have been labeled as SIDS and even SBS.

      It’s hard to prove all the deaths that happen, because the world of medicine is in denial and refuses to take responsibility.

      Also, how would a non-vaccinated person hold any vaccinated person at ransom? Aren’t the only people at risk the ones not vaccinated? Don’t vaccines work? If so, no one is held ransom. Your thinking is backwards.

      How do non-vaccinated persons feel they should get special treatment? O-o That is mind boggling. Can you give us examples to support your claim? Are you referring to receiving an education in the public school system? How is that wanting or desiring anything “special” ?

      There is also a choice. Parents can home school their kids, instead.

    • Richids Coulter

      I guess you know differently than the pharmaceutical companies that make the vaccines which include death as a rare but serious adverse reaction to vaccines. Those with severe egg allergies can also die immediately following vaccination. Death rates from disease were in decline LONG before vaccination campaigns began and in some cases like measles had fallen by OVER 99% in the 100 years before the 1st vaccination.

      Only in the US does this sort of vaccine tyranny occur. In other developed countries you don’t even have to sign an exemption form.

    • MadWorld

      The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid out over $2.5 BILLION dollars since 1989–for a wide range of health problems, including death. SMH at the ignorance of some people.

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    It is curious that more educated parents are less likely to vaccinate, feed their children sugar or GMOs.

  • Patrick Thomas

    What if my unvaccinated child catches a so-called VPD from a vaccinated kid who is shedding? All one has to do is read the label on many vaccines to see that vaccines do, indeed, shed.

  • Patrick Thomas

    All one has to do is read mainstream news stories and mainstream studies to see that the whooping cough vaccine is making matters worse. It’s causing the bacteria to mutate and the overwhelming majority who catch whooping cough are fully vaccinated.

    https://www.facebook.com/WhoopingCoughVaccineIsMakingMattersWorse

  • Patrick Thomas

    Did you all know that vaccines are causing bacteria and viruses to mutate in similar manner to antibiotics? Here’s a collection of mainstream news stories and mainstream studies which confirm this fact:

    http://www.polkmoms.com/forum/topics/are-vaccines-causing-mutations-creating-a-similar-problem-as

  • Patrick Thomas

    Regarding vaccines, we were told these
    things with a straight-face by experts and officials:

    http://www.dailypaul.com/194235/regardng-vaccine-injuries-we-were-told-these-things-with-a-straight-face-by-experts-and-officials

  • Patrick Thomas
  • Julie Vargas

    my daughter is partially vaccinated. i had to space out the shots for my daughter after she had a reaction to having 8 vaccines at 2 months old which is recommended by the CDC. i had to fight to keep the hepatitis B vaccine away from my daughter even with a clear family history of adverse reaction to it…i got ridiculed by maternity ward nurses even after telling them about how both me and my brother went into shock. Im not against vaccination altogether but i want shots that dont use human fetal cell lines and i want an alternative to combination shots. the UK has separated MMR shots, japan has a fetal cell free rubella and hepatitis A shot. its possible to have those without human fetal cell lines

    • Richids Coulter

      The UK pulled the individual measles vaccine shortly after Dr. Wakefield recommended using it in lieu of the MMR, and yet he, not the NHS, gets the blame of measles outbreaks in the UK? Farcical at best. I would have asked one of the maternity nurses to get the vaccine for you then read to you aloud the entire list of possible adverse reactions and after 15 minutes when she’s finished reading see if she’s still got a smirk on her face.

  • Lilmisstruthseeker

    Here’s a question for thinking minds…like the flu, don’t these strains of viral diseases mutate? Wouldn’t they have to constantly change these vaccinations to keep them up to date with current strands? Can they become immune? Is this why people who have previously been immunized STILL get these diseases?

  • katie

    I guess if a wedding photographer is discriminating against a gay couple if refuses to photograph their wedding, pediatricians are discriminating against children and their parents based on religious beliefs. It is time to sue them for equal treatment.

  • atelise

    My daughter’s heart stopped in the pediatricians office when she had her MMR vaccine. She had to have a pacemaker implanted.

  • Ivet Flexon

    I’m afraid of the vaccinated shedding weird, GMO lab created viruses, I’m considering asking everyone I come in contact with if they’ve been vaccinated, or wear a mask.

  • NikkiHillHernandez

    I’m laughing at the fact that the dr. said that the routes of entry are all the same. Wow! Was he sleeping during that lesson?

    • NikkiHillHernandez

      We should also work on the population problem by killing ourselves. Got to think about the group and be a responsible citizen. Maybe that guy would also be okay with sterilization for children to curb population to help humans as a whole?

  • Don Harte, D.C.

    To inject children with questionable biological materials mixed with known neurotoxins, serially over years, to allegedly prevent disease, is quackery of the worst order. To force parents to have their kids vaccinated is medical Nazism.

  • Kellybythebook

    I would have liked to have the show focus not only on the impact on medically at-risk children exposed to diseases because children’s parents chose not to get the kids vaccinated but also on the impact on adults exposed to these diseases. Remember the story of Gene Tierney whose child was born severely retarded because a fan exposed her to German Measles. This was the basis of the Agatha Christie story The Mirror Cracked, made into movies several times, including with Elizabeth Taylor.

  • Skylar Gemmer

    I think it’s very interesting that the most educated and affluent neighborhoods have the lowest rates of immunized children. Coincidence…?

  • annoymous

    If you want people to be responsible for the death of others because of our choice to not vaccinate, as mentioned in the post-natal scenario – and the proof would be based on scientific gene research. Then, when a child dies due to receiving a vaccine, or gets a permanent condition, then the doctor and/or facilities that administered the vaccine should be held to the same standard. If you want to push for homicide etc…then it should go both ways.

  • Gkiter

    I believe vaccines are an outdated flawed technology (discovered 300+ years ago) and more dangerous than the diseases they are supposed to protect against except where the diseases rates are very high. In the USA and Europe, the risks of getting the diseases and complications from the vaccines themselves is much greater than catching a wild deadly or debilitating and incurable form of these diseases.

    Vaccinating against infantile diseases such as MMR is preventing infant’s immune systems from developing properly with grave consequences for the rest of their lives besides playing Russian roulette with the horrible sides effects of the vaccines such as type-1 diabetes, ADD, ADHD, brain injuries, ASD, cancers and instant death which have all exploded over the last 20 years in correlation with the amount of vaccines injections given to children.

    Catching an infantile disease such as measles, rubella or chickenpox is a normal and necessary process for infants immune systems development. Vaccinating against this diseases is same as saying God created a poorly functioning immune system that humans have to correct with medical technology, if you believe in God.

    But besides my beliefs on vaccine’s technology, it is highly unethical and down right dictatorial for a government to force anyone into any sort of medication. If the Republicans and Tea Party are calling “Obama care” unconstitutional, forcing people to get medicated with very unsafe drugs against their own will with is definitively unconstitutional and no less than tyrannic.

    It is also against the Hippocratic Oath taken by every doctor, which can read the following as an example “I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel”.

  • brothersun

    The entire discussion on the pro-vax side sits on the assumption that vaccines work, and are generally safe. But the studies touting safety and efficacy have been manipulated, using all manner of scientific fraud, to produce a result favorable to vaccine makers and government agencies. Before the IOM even began their study on a possible vaccine-autism link, the CDC instructed the IOM to come to a negative finding (no link). Dr Gary Null spent over 7 years investigating the studies most often cited for safety and efficacy and he was shocked at all the scientific fraud he found. So, if you really care about science, you can’t just accept the official CDC or AMA position without listening to the many scientists who are discovering the real harm being caused by vaccines, and the fact that they don’t even work. Calling an MD a “quack” shows that you don’t care about science, and are too lazy to address the valid points being raised. The pro-vaxers on the KQED panel say yes, methylmercury is toxic, but the ethylmercury in Thimerasol is safe. Perhaps they missed this: “In 1985, the Archives of Toxicology published a comparative study that administered similar doses of ethylmercury and methylmercury to rats. The ethylmercury-treated rats had higher amounts of inorganic mercury in their kidneys and brains. In August 2005, a study funded by the National Institutes of Health also found that ethylmercury is more toxic to the brain than methylmercury. It crosses the blood-brain barrier quicker and converts to inorganic mercury—which is more difficult to excrete and stays in the brain longer—at much higher levels.” Also, note that there is no such thing as “scientific concensus.” There are hundreds of MDs and PhDs who, from their research and personal experience in their medical practice, have serious concerns about vaccines. A dozen or so are featured here: Vaccine-Injury.info

  • Brianbrain

    The JAMA’s own charts show that nearly all diseases were dying out before vaccinations started.Since vaccination is now a FRAUD and maims and kills,then no one should be vaccinated using the precautionary principle.Vaccine makers,themselves claim their vaccines have side effects and don’t work.Basically it is only the greed of Pharmaceuticals and the AMA that will go broke WHEN we stop vaccinations.

    http://users.adam.com.au/brianbrain/gaia.htm

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